Enlightenment - Belief ? - And Paranoïa ?

[Pauline Bureau]

Hi everyone,

Leo's video on beliefs and the fact that we should question everything, his words comprised ; really put me in a confused state of mind. Because of course it led me to question Enlightenment :  " is Enlightenment a belief ? To what extent is it more legitimate/trustful than any other paths ?" "Is it not one more idea only based on the words of others ?"  These last two questions come from some moments during which I am so confused about "what is truth?" that I am even led to think "maybe Enlightenment is just another conspiracy ".

 Don't you think that the path toward Enlightenment requires a belief in the fact that it is going to bring us 'truth'/ pure and infinite happiness" ? Is the fact that I have these questions a symptom of the fact that I did not have enough spiritual "experiences" ? 

 

[cetus]

    Hi Pauline. Yes, enlightenment can often become a concept of something "other" to be attained. The truth is what we search for is something that we have only forgotten about. It's not out there somewhere to be found. It's the deeper part of who you are. Path?  A path to where everything is happening right now within you?

Edited December 1, 2016 by cetus56

[Prabhaker]

4 hours ago, Pauline Bureau said:

" is Enlightenment a belief ? To what extent is it more legitimate/trustful than any other paths ?" "Is it not one more idea only based on the words of others ?" 

You are correct. One never knows whether one will be able to make it or not. It is a gambling, but only the gamblers know what life is. A seeker stakes everything for something which may be there or may not be there.

[Bob84]

@Pauline Bureau Enlightenment is about freedom from the mind.

Whatever belief you need to motivate yourself is fine. But for enlightenment its meaningless.

[WelcometoReality]

@Pauline Bureau You don't need to believe that enlightenment exist. That belief needs to be seen through anyway. What is needed is the urge to know truth  Beliefs are just beliefs not in any way true. If you want to know what truth is look in you own experience, what is true?

[Pauline Bureau]

Quote

On 1 décembre 2016 at 9:57 PM, cetus56 said:

  Path?  A path to where everything is happening right now within you?

Thank you for your answers,

by "path" I meant that seeking Enlightenment is a real commitment that in effect requires a lot of time and energy (meditation sessions, writing, reading, isolation...) to the point that it is something you choose to do instead of others things you could be doing and in which you could actualize yourself as well, without enlightenment, just by being committed and making of it your purpose (creative passion for ex.) so that yes it is gambling, all the more since the motivation to seek for it relies only on the words of a minority of people who are told as being enlightened. Because, 

14 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

@Pauline Bureau What is needed is the urge to know truth  Beliefs are just beliefs not in any way true. If you want to know what truth is look in you own experience, what is true?

why do we really want to know truth if it's not to actualize oneself ? It is, isn't it ? So what if people have already a passion that they are mastering and that make them feel alive ?  Or they just "people who prefer to remain stuck in illusions" ? Are they people still too blinded by ego ? Are they what all people seeking for Enlightenment were not able to be but ? 

 

[cetus]

1 minute ago, Pauline Bureau said:

by "path" I meant that seeking Enlightenment is a real commitment that in effect requires a lot of time and energy

@Pauline Bureau I am saying quite the opposite. You were given a whole lifetime to discover what you already are now.

[Pauline Bureau]

does it mean that seeking Enlightenment is the symptom of some kind of a failure ? Is it a "quest" for those who did not find any fulfilling/ enriching/ captivating other way to spend their time ? (since we can chose whoever we want to be since we are nothingness (for me it's like we are all like cups of different shapes and we choose to put everything we want to within)) 

[cetus]

13 hours ago, Pauline Bureau said:

does it mean that seeking Enlightenment is the symptom of some kind of a failure

The self arises and dissolves within this space. Mooji Yes it is a cure for a symptom of failure. The failure of the illusory self.

Edited December 3, 2016 by cetus56

[Neo]

35 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

The self arises and dissolves within this space. Mooji Yes it is a cure for a symptom of failure.

I think it's been described by people including Leo as Truth, and for some people, Truth means everything even

though Truth can't be conveyed as "facts" or "knowledge" in the normal sense.

[cetus]

@Neo Truth exists outside Knowledge. A truth that is spoken of is never the whole truth because knowledge is movement and truth is stillness. 

[Deep]

4 hours ago, Pauline Bureau said:

does it mean that seeking Enlightenment is the symptom of some kind of a failure ? Is it a "quest" for those who did not find any fulfilling/ enriching/ captivating other way to spend their time ? (since we can chose whoever we want to be since we are nothingness (for me it's like we are all like cups of different shapes and we choose to put everything we want to within)) 

No, enlightenment is not a symptom of failure. The reason why those people pursued enlightenment is because it came naturally to them. The best thing we can do is what comes naturally to us. If we become enlightened in the process great, if not, oh well. 

[WelcometoReality]

11 hours ago, Pauline Bureau said:

why do we really want to know truth if it's not to actualize oneself ? It is, isn't it ? So what if people have already a passion that they are mastering and that make them feel alive ?  Or they just "people who prefer to remain stuck in illusions" ? Are they people still too blinded by ego ? Are they what all people seeking for Enlightenment were not able to be but ? 

I can only speak for myself and there was an urge to know the truth. There was no reason why, it was just there.

People are the way there are because that's the way they are. Everything else would just be a belief, an explanation, but if that's what you are seeking look into "Integral Spirituality" by Ken Wilber. 

[Leo Gura]

On 12/1/2016 at 11:40 AM, Pauline Bureau said:

These last two questions come from some moments during which I am so confused about "what is truth?" that I am even led to think "maybe Enlightenment is just another conspiracy ".

It's good that you're questioning these things. Nothing is scared here.

The reality is, that from your point of view, enlightenment could be a hoax and all of us supporting it could be deluded or liars.

You'll never know unless you actually reach it, or fail to do so.

But you have to start somewhere. You need a working hypothesis to test.

P.S. While you're being skeptical, don't forget to question your skepticism and doubt of enlightenment too! What if the greatest hoax is your own doubt?

[kurt]

@Pauline Bureau Enlightenment is not a belief, it is a way of interpreting experience, an alternative way to see the world, existence.

There is only one sentient awareness here, it is the same sentient awareness in all people, it is the substrate of all phenomena.  you mind is an instrument, but most of us are conditioned to believe that we are this mind and this body, and therefore we miss this background witnessing consciousness.

The matters to question is your beliefs and conditioning that brought you to the conclusion that you are a mind, in a body, separate from other minds and bodies.  

If you can understand that you are not the body or the mind, then there is only one "thing" left that you can be - awareness.  And this awareness is the same awareness in all sentient beings.

That realization is the "truth", that there is only you here, one sentiency "deluded" by many different minds and bodies.  If you can see that you are enlightened (well, youre already "enlightened" but to be able to hold that knowledge and not forget it is a different matter.  Thats where the work comes in).

Edited December 24, 2016 by kurt

[Aware]

@kurt Yes Kurt! So it is, so it is indeed!