Vagos

How do you deal with toxic Green?? Leo? Help

62 posts in this topic

@Snader  Thank you so much, this really means a lot! <3

I am still waiting for examples of toxic Green from the OP. I am curious how our individual understandings of what Green is are different. There are many people here, coming from different backgrounds, paths, states of consciousness, it is really a pitty that we are discussing something so complex without defining it first. It is really disturbing.

6 hours ago, captainamerica said:

A lot of the time they are not really at that stage of development and that is why it is nearly impossible to discuss with them.

What do you find impossible to discuss with stage Green people? 

6 hours ago, captainamerica said:

Orange is not fully integrated leading to wrong Green ideas.  (like hippies thinking no more new technology is needed for eg. or they are anti corporations/wealth instead of standing for reform and taxation or it could be talk about flattening the hierarchies without truly understanding its survival function right now and in decades ahead)

I agree with you that new technology is needed. For example there are people working on public toilets in 3rd world countries that can transform shit into drinkable water. That would easily be one of the most useful inventions and also very stage Green. Have you considered any arguments against worshipping corporations and blindly falling for the illusions of capitalism? Buying clothes in HnM, looking at the pictures of pretty child models, without knowing that the clothes you are looking at were made by enslaved kids in India and Bangladesh. In our system, it is basically impossible to ethically consume almost anything, so targetting the moral codes of corporations in order to stop them from neo-colonialism and slavery might actually be the more spirally evolved than living by example... Of course, do both, but like if most companies are immoral, you literally can't make a significant change without targetting companies. I also think in today's world most hierarchies are too hierarchical. What do you think is an example of a hierarchy that's too flattened? For example in education, kids rarely feel safe to question their teachers and if they feel like what they are learning is useless (it mostly is), they are told it is a part of the syllabus (that's organized in a useless way) and they cannot do anything. On this forum as well, some people are afraid of the moderators.

8 hours ago, captainamerica said:

College Green is not Real green in most cases as let alone Orange, even Blue is not properly integrated. It is generally difficult to discuss with people in such a position as they will probably only learn from experience through time. 

What do you mean by College Green?

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

What do you find impossible to discuss with stage Green people? 

  • That their projecting. 
  • A conversation that isn't personal. 
Edited by integral

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10 minutes ago, integral said:
  • That their projecting. 
  • A conversation that isn't personal. 

Projecting happens in every stage, more so in Orange, Blue and below. What is so specific for Green? What Green topics are impersonal?

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Yeah, we do need to get a good definition on what toxic green actually is first in order to figure out how to deal with it. It isn't the easiest thing to point out due to green not being super prominent yet. 

I feel some examples are, someone who values community and equality, but they they don't have the integrity of the lower stages so they become a doormat for others so that they can "keep the peace". This is the type that is afraid to hurt or be hurt and as @bejapuskas said will lie to avoid this. 

Then the other side of the coin someone who aggressively fights for equality so much that it becomes inequality, as in demonizing the other side rather then trying to find harmony together. 

I think a lot of toxic green manifests mainly due to people being born in first world countries, not having to integrate the lower stages. Often times demonizing them, or having a week spine from not integrating the good in them. 

Green needs Yellow to help it integrate the healthy lower stages so that Green can see the good in the lower stages & find harmony with them. Just as Orange needs Green to help create a healthy environment, businesses, relationships, and growing a equal society. 

Green needs healthy Yellow leaders who are willing to help Green understand things at a systemic level. In my opinion healthy Green will point to dysfunctional systems rather then demonize others, or doormat themselves for "equality". 


The how is what you build, the why is in your heart. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

What do you find impossible to discuss with stage Green people? 

10 hours ago, captainamerica said:

They are not stage Green, as I have said.

In my imagination, I can be stage turquoise. 

I am not really interested in debating. I do love talking with those who are actually Green from various communities and events like Mindvalley groups, Awesomeness Fest, etc. 

Edited by captainamerica

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@captainamerica  I think I get you, your words just became paradoxical for a while xD 

17 minutes ago, OctagonOctopus said:

The other side of the coin someone who aggressively fights for equality so much that it becomes inequality, as in demonizing the other side rather then trying to find harmony together. 

I think a lot of toxic green manifests mainly due to people being born in first world countries, not having to integrate the lower stages. Often times demonizing them, or having a week spine from not integrating the good in them. 

Could you go more in-depth on these two points? :) They sound interesting to discuss here.

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Posted (edited)

@bejapuskas

 Self-proclaimed Green on this forum has even lied about being Green for weeks and months just to win stupid arguments. I will not name any names but if you have been here I think you may remember. Later they came out as Blue, struggling with orange values or barely managing their survival only beginning to question it. This lying is not what real Green is. I have talked to/known many amazing people who integrate it well, it is so amazing this thing is not even comparable to the real deal IMO. The real Green are bringing a new Orange-Green revolution in America. It is real and the trends are undeniable at this point. These trends are literally invincible, like evolution:D. Something to be grateful for if you cherish similar ideals :-)

I will PM about the "college Green"...

Edited by captainamerica

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@bejapuskas

Sure :)

The aggressive demonizing others and the passive doormats for equality I see as two sides of the balance of trying to integrate stage Green. I have observed people switching between these two poles in an almost manic manner. I see this as a kind of chaos that comes from not integrating the grounded sense of purpose stage Blue/ Orange has, where unintegrated stage Green people will have a very abstract sense of purpose that involves a lot of social activism usually, but never "getting there hands dirty" in a sense and actually going into the system that has an issue and understanding its essence so they can work within it.

What I see is that stage Green people need to understand different systemic issues so they can design their purpose such that they are targeting a system that they are passionate about, like what permaculture is doing to farming, or holistic health centers that are more concious then the modern health care systems.

I don't think people really start to understand systemic issues until they get to stage Green. Turquoise is about holistically harmonizing every sphere of life, which the holons of a sphere are different depending on the context you are in. This is really what Green wants, but Green is just at the beginning stages of understanding systems, it needs to allow Yellow to show it how to get there.

 


The how is what you build, the why is in your heart. 

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@captainamerica  Oh yeah I guess there were such people. Self-proclaimed Yellow on this forum is also a huge issue. I don't know about Turquoise, maybe xD I am happy about what is happening with stage Green in some countries. But still I don't think it is prominent enough to like be demonized and shit, I think there is much more the average Joe can learn from Green at this point.

Sure, PM me, I am grateful for all these conversations between 4 eyes.

@OctagonOctopus  Oh yes I see what you mean there. I think it is often a matter of personal experience that helps you understand a system or a mechanism. For example a white person might have issue seeing how much systemic rasism affects people, because it just flies above their heads. And many people even become offended by it, because they think it is something obsolete or useless that just triggers people and does not really help. While that's not really true, the Green perspective perceives these ignorant white people as like inherently or intentionally evil, when they might totally seem like it because of indoctrination and biased education, but not be it. It takes a lot of emotional work, effort and pain to transition from Green to Yellow. For example on this forum we have some of these people who victim blame and slut shame and I guess a user who is a rape victim would have a hard time talking to them. So maybe in this sense they might be ignorant, but they are in a completely justified place of hurtness too and they might be very understanding in other aspects of life when they do have the dual experience. I usually relate to these users, because I used to be an incel, but then I also kind of transcended that through Green.

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Posted (edited)

@bejapuskas

42 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@captainamerica  Oh yeah I guess there were such people. Self-proclaimed Yellow on this forum is also a huge issue. I don't know about Turquoise, maybe xD I am happy about what is happening with stage Green in some countries. But still I don't think it is prominent enough to like be demonized and shit, I think there is much more the average Joe can learn from Green at this point.

Sure, PM me, I am grateful for all these conversations between 4 eyes.

@OctagonOctopus

Sure , Mr fox guarding the hens house.

42 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@captainamerica  . But still I don't think it is prominent enough to like be demonized and shit, I think there is much more the average Joe can learn from Green at this point.

.

@OctagonOctopus  

You know what. I call your bullshit on that. Only devils fear understanding.  Understanding is not demonizing it. 

Light = Evil . Vampire logic :D

 

There is more to toxic Green than some ideas of feminism. Green feminism is good. Not fake non attachment and other things for sure.  

Edited by captainamerica

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@captainamerica  Yes but on this forum its mostly women and queer people who understand what feminism is. So many members still get triggered by people fighting for their rights even when they share vulnerable stories. These users are too butt-hurt to go into the maze of understanding the bad side of something they demonize. And even among like my more evolved guy friends, they dont realize how huge of an issue gender equality is world-wide, because of privilege.

I actually maybe understand what you were trying to say. I guess the toxic and the healthy sides need to be presented simultaneously and one needs to be self-reflective enough in order for learning to take place. I guess I was triggered by the fact that there is a thread about toxic Green on a forum where so many people have Green shadow and fail to embody caring and compassion. But I dont have issues if somebody tells somebody like you know, I dont think you understand feminism. You are right that misandry is wrong, but it does not even fit into the definition of feminism... 

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Some issues I see with green, for one one is a nature fallacy, in which everything that is 'natural' is automatically good and anything that's man made or made by a corporation is bad. There's a complete rejection of orange which of course needs to be integrated. There's many elements of magical thinking in the new age movement in the form of crystals and manifestation etc. 

The core of this of course is not limited to green, it's something that's seen up and down the spiral, ie rejection of the previous memes. Also its not everyone in green that had these issues I would say it's the more toxic element. Eventually I think these issues get overcome as well its just part of the journey 

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@captainamerica  Yes but on this forum its mostly women and queer people who understand what feminism is. So many members still get triggered by people fighting for their rights even when they share vulnerable stories. These users are too butt-hurt to go into the maze of understanding the bad side of something they demonize. And even among like my more evolved guy friends, they dont realize how huge of an issue gender equality is world-wide, because of privilege. 

@bejapuskas It seems like you care about making people understand feminism and transforming them positively. If that is actually the case then I will recommend looking beyond the limited lens of spiral dynamics. I am sure there are several-fold better ways to connect to people for this purpose than labeling them "Orange", "Green", "Yellow" etc. in the limited perspective of SD. In my experience and learning as well, there are better ways to have people understand feminism or even transform them and develop compassion and empathy from scratch.

The possibility of depths that mastery can reach is so underestimated. You may have read about the superhuman feats of Bruce Lee, attained just through practice. Hatha Yogis start by holding their breath for a couple of minutes, practice it for years and decades, tens and hundreds of thousands of times and develop the ability to hold their breath for even a couple of hours. The simple metronome meditation given by Leo is practiced and repeated a million times by great meditators. In the Diamond Sutra, such a concentration is compared to Vajra, something that can cut through steel as easily as a sharp knife cuts through the mud. That attainment is just by sheer practice, millions of times! Who knows in 5-10 years from now you may become so skilled at this particular skill that you may transform them in just 5 min. of communication. I will approach it separately from SD though because that requires exquisite balance which only 1 in 100 people have, like Yellow.

Edited by captainamerica

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Posted (edited)

You remind me of me some years back.  You seem like you might actually be Yellow, something rare on this forum.  In any case, I'd suggest broadening your perspectives to the point of getting bored of broadening your perspectives.  From there you can try becoming other people (esp. in debates), this will help with attaining emotional mastery through a greater empathic awareness.

You'll be fully Turquoised-out when you complete this; may even stop clinging to ideas like "life purpose", or even "life", lol.

Edited by thisintegrated

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@thisintegrated @captainamerica  Thank you guys. <3 Life is indeed a joke lmao.

I think there was a misunderstanding. You were talking more generally in the context of devils generally fearing understanding. I was talking more about in the space of this thread and even this forum where people demonize green and often misidentify themselves with higher stages in order to gain short term feelings of selfish happiness and false social status and authority.

I agree that SD is often not enough. And thanks for recognizing that I care about these topics. I am trying to build a more inviting culture here on this forum so that people can learn more deeply and feel more safe. 

20 hours ago, Consept said:

Some issues I see with green, for one one is a nature fallacy, in which everything that is 'natural' is automatically good and anything that's man made or made by a corporation is bad. There's a complete rejection of orange which of course needs to be integrated. There's many elements of magical thinking in the new age movement in the form of crystals and manifestation etc. 

The core of this of course is not limited to green, it's something that's seen up and down the spiral, ie rejection of the previous memes. Also its not everyone in green that had these issues I would say it's the more toxic element. Eventually I think these issues get overcome as well its just part of the journey 

@Consept I think some aspects of green are opposite of what you are describing. If we go back to gender again, stage Blue thinks "nature" disproves transgenderism and non-binary and LGBT in general, when green finds examples when this is natural. All these gender expectations that affect almost everyones life negatively in some way or the other are you might say natural, because men being strong, therefore provider in ape ages etc. but green actually says this doesnt benefit us anymore lets do better. And lower stages call it toxic, because they dont understand that patriarchy and feminism doesnt mean blaming men, but its like fighting against ideas that affect everyone negatively. Also green doesnt demonize everything men made, art is also men made. And stages below overlook the fact that corporations discriminate and enslave. All these issues you listed seem to be more typical for lower stages.

I am still waiting for more examples of actual toxic green.

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7 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

You remind me of me some years back.  You seem like you might actually be Yellow, something rare on this forum.  In any case, I'd suggest broadening your perspectives to the point of getting bored of broadening your perspectives.  From there you can try becoming other people (esp. in debates), this will help with attaining emotional mastery through a greater empathic awareness.

You'll be fully Turquoised-out when you complete this; may even stop clinging to ideas like "life purpose", or even "life", lol.

Who? @Vagos ?

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2 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

I am still waiting for more examples of actual toxic green

You are right of course when you put what I said in the context you've put it in but I didn't actually mean what you were talking about, which is on me as I wasn't clear enough. 

When I say green has  bias toward everything natural what I mean is in terms of medicine or food or even fabrics and materials. For example there's an aversion to modern medicine as it's seen as unnatural or made in a lab. This can be quite damaging as a green person may not take modern medicine if they have cancer for example or they may advise people who have it not to take it. 

There's also a condition now where people can get obsessed with eating healthy and it can affect them quite badly. 

When I say man made I'm speaking on things made in a lab where the process isn't 'natural', many greens have problems with these things. 

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@bejapuskas 

Defantly, it is a matter of expirence. Understanding is always relative to the scenarios you put yourself in. Systems in general can be understood on a meta level, there are principles that can be understood that can be used to work within systems that are the same type, or all systems in general. 

Yeah a person in a who grew up in a privilege position is going to have a harder time understanding someone who grew up poor. Very hard to notice something that doesn't effect you, unless you are a empathetic person, and even then if you didn't expirence being in a poor environment then it can be difficult to really understand. Systemic racism has stunted many families. 

Takes a lot of emotional work to grow in a positive way in general, but yeah moving to a new spiral stage is a big transition, takes a lot of work. 

I see what you mean, certainly in the dating section of the forum that is going on. Some people need more help then others to empathize with people. Cultural programming that needs to be rewired, but that can only really be done if the person is open-minded and willing to change. 

Stage Green is usually really good at openness to change and empathizing with others hardships. I feel most toxic aspects of any stage comes a lot from clinging to an ideology, lower stages usually have more dense worldview, where higher stages have a more fluid, constantly changing worldview. 

It is interesting you know most people have gone threw some kind of trauma, and usually I find those who have accepted their trauma have a much easier time empathizing with others. Sometimes though if they haven't expirenced a similar type of truama, it can be harder to understand another. 


The how is what you build, the why is in your heart. 

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