machiavelli

If there is no right or wrong then how does karma work?

64 posts in this topic

When there is no judgement through god then what is the place of karma? Leo says there is no right or wrong. Everything is love. God doesnt punish no matter what. He even loves hitler. He loves all. Then whats karma then? Why are people suffering in this world?

If karma exist then it automatically implies god punishes us. Even though connection is indirect but it still holds.

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Posted (edited)

Imo karma is not about good or evil, karma is what you get when you put something into a system without being conscious of what it could lead to. Simplest example is being a warlord who rapes and murders families, dont be surprised if those close to those families come back and hang you when/if you lose your power. So karma is not some ethereal thing, its just cause and effect. Another example is destroying the environment, if you piss in the river dont be surprised if you get piss in your faucet. 

Edited by Rilles

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@Rilles Then why in different religions such as hinduism and buddhism it is said that your current life is determined by your past life karma's. ??

They say if you did wrong stuff in your previous life then you will encounter same thing in your next life.  Isnt it imply god punishing people?

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1 minute ago, machiavelli said:

@Rilles Then why in different religions such as hinduism and buddhism it is said that your current life is determined by your past life karma's. ??

They say if you did wrong stuff in your previous life then you will encounter same thing in your next life.  Isnt it imply god punishing people?

Its just how I look at it, I dont necessarily subscribe to the Buddhist notion of karma. 

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It's just cause and effect. The degree to which you don't live up to your ideal will determine how unsatisfied you are with yourself.

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@The0Self

2 minutes ago, The0Self said:

It's just cause and effect. The degree to which you don't live up to your ideal will determine how unsatisfied you are with yourself.

Ellaborate what do you mean by dont live up to your ideal.

Why do then bad things happen to good people? And evil people always thrives ? 

If there is no karmic debt then whats the point of life?

If there is no right or wrong as leo states in his videos then whats the point of reincarnation? whats there to learn? 

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1 minute ago, machiavelli said:

Ellaborate what do you mean by dont live up to your ideal.

Not doing what you believe is right. For instance, for many, their ideal is (their idea of) Jesus Christ.

2 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

Why do then bad things happen to good people? And evil people always thrives ?

There aren't necessarily good and evil people; just beings playing out the results of their conditioning, in a complicated web of interactions in which plenty of "unfairness" will take place.

4 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

If there is no karmic debt then whats the point of life?

Life itself. And there is karmic debt, in a sense. What you do has consequences. In a sense, you could say life is the inevitable result of limitlessness.

6 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

If there is no right or wrong as leo states in his videos then whats the point of reincarnation? whats there to learn?

There isn't necessarily reincarnation, but rebirth might happen because the alternative is nothing, which is limitless, which means anything can happen, including life as you observe it now.

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25 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

If karma exist then it automatically implies god punishes us. Even though connection is indirect but it still holds.

That is one construct of “karma”. If you hold tightly to that construct of karma, there will be confusion.

For example, there is also a construct of karma that is more about cause and effect, rather than good, bad and punishment. 

If someone is kind to other people, they may attract lots of friends. We could say being kind is good and god rewarded the good behavior with lots of friends. Or we could say that people simply like kind people and want to be friends with them. If someone is kind, they naturally attract people. It has nothing to do with being good, judged by god or being rewarded. 

Two different ways of looking at things.

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@Forestluv But in several NDE (Near death experiences ) it was shown person talking to white light and it was shown how their action effected loved ones and rippled throughout the lives of everyone. It was shown through life review. Also in some NDE it was shown by white light that wrong doings such as murder of a person in their past life lead to same consequences in next life . 

I have read hundreds of NDE's. And it directly implies god punishes people for their wrong doing even though lessons is always of love. 

So that mean god punishes us. And LEO is wrong in his video when he says there is no morality . God loves all. God loves hitler too. 

And if we are god then why we are punishing us? whats the point of subjecting one self in this maya if we god know before hand that ego is such a thing that will make people do wrong things . If he accepts all things and loves everybody no matter as LEO says then why NDE contradict LEO's teaching?  NDE's are direct one and one connection with our higher self matrix. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Forestluv But in several NDE (Near death experiences ) it was shown person talking to white light and it was shown how their action effected loved ones and rippled throughout the lives of everyone. It was shown through life review. Also in some NDE it was shown by white light that wrong doings such as murder of a person in their past life lead to same consequences in next life . 

I have read hundreds of NDE's. And it directly implies god punishes people for their wrong doing even though lessons is always of love. 

So that mean god punishes us. And LEO is wrong in his video when he says there is no morality . God loves all. God loves hitler too. 

And if we are god then why we are punishing us? whats the point of subjecting one self in this maya if we god know before hand that ego is such a thing that will make people do wrong things . If he accepts all things and loves everybody no matter as LEO says then why NDE contradict LEO's teaching?  NDE's are direct one and one connection with our higher self matrix. 

Look at your line of reasoning. Even if we accept the ideas that certain acts in one life carry over to a next life, you are inserting a thing you call “god” that is making judgements and giving punishment. 

You seem to be conflating traditional ideas of “god” that is a judgmental/punishing entity vs a nondual idea of god that is One Everything. As well, you seem to have a belief of objective morality as determined by a some type of separate entity you call “god”. These beliefs will appear to have contradictions, which causes confusion. 

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2 hours ago, machiavelli said:

When there is no judgement through god then what is the place of karma? Leo says there is no right or wrong. Everything is love. God doesnt punish no matter what. He even loves hitler. He loves all. Then whats karma then? Why are people suffering in this world?

If karma exist then it automatically implies god punishes us. Even though connection is indirect but it still holds.

Don’t overestimate Creation. It’s mystical, none but God’s Mind knows it’s ways and secrets.

You are a human who will never be The Infinite Formless Godhead.

Instead of trying to understand reality with your finite mind, leave all this to The Creator.

’’I know not. God knows.’’

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@machiavelli Karma doesn't work as a complete explanation for the state of affairs. The Void/Mu is timeless (which you can experience from meditation/inquiry). Now I'm going to give a fake story of creation "which isn't true" but will serve as a good analogy for why Karma doesn't work as an absolute explanation. 

Suppose that once upon a time, God was completely unified and formless. Out of complete boredom, God decided to fragment himself and create the  illusion of separateness, duality. There is no "cause" or "karma" to that. "God"/"Void" just "wanted" to do that. 
 

2 hours ago, machiavelli said:

Then whats karma then? Why are people suffering in this world?

If karma exist then it automatically implies god punishes us. Even though connection is indirect but it still holds.

Now I have similar questions in my mind too about good and evil, about suffering. Wondering why does suffering exist, why does evil exist..... That seems to be the core issue you're asking beyond all the technical details. Looking at all the nonsense, evil and suffering in the world.

I don't know. The obstacle might be that we have to open our minds to looking at reality different, to question our perceptions, assumptions and beliefs around the issues of evil and suffering. As hard as that is, as much as our minds may try to delude us. 

"Surrender" and "Not-Knowing", I've heard these two things described separately but now I kind of see as them as going together. 


"Piercing through the whitewash will turn into the truth someday
I want to keep believing in it stubbornly; It’s just my faith. The absolute truth."

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@Forestluv So it means NDE are false. And god is telling a lie? 

Even though everything is god as per non dualism but still human suffering are real. Every year evil stuff happen with people all around the world. Rape , Murder, Genocide etc etc.  How can you brush off suffering of people by saying everything is one and their is no other who punishes? Then why there is soo much evil in the world? 

Why good people are suffering and evil one get away. ? If there is no morality and everything good and evil is same. Then why not do evil things?

If evil is same as good and its LOVE as claimed by LEO, Then arent we are mistaking calling it love? How can people doing evil things with each other around the world is termed as Love? 

See its contradiction.

We just Equated EVIL with Goodness. And stated it as LOVE. 

Dont you think there is something more to it we are not understanding yet?

 May be as it is all infinite we are not able to see infinite chain of caustion which are leading to both good and bad. ?

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

So it means NDE are false

Loads of people's NDE could just bullshit concoctions of their own minds. Their own unconscious beliefs just coming outwards in a vision. The unconscious is also very figurative and mythologised in images, and you need to contextualise it all with discernment and investigation. It's a colourful and "supernatural" domain to treat with nuance. 

^See CG Jung for understanding unconscious. He's a genius of both left and right brain

And it's not like those people who had those NDE's are you, so you don't need to give authority to it. 

Edited by lmfao

"Piercing through the whitewash will turn into the truth someday
I want to keep believing in it stubbornly; It’s just my faith. The absolute truth."

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@lmfao But it makes sense when white light tells why's of everything in LIFE REVIEW. White Light tells the reason why things happen the way it happened because they did something wrong that lead to same consequences in next life. It is Karmic Debt in clear sense.

And it explains everything in my opinion.

But still why god punishes us for wrong doings of our past life's? In this lifetime we are good. And never ever think of hurting people.

Its not like one NDE states it like this. If you research and study them all lead to same concept of karma .

 

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"You are not punished for your anger, you are punished by your anger." -- The Buddha


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

@machiavelli I reference my first message. You will have to at least be open to surrendering and letting go of this narrative with openness if you want to even start to make progress. 

You've already decided God exists and that he's punishing us. Where's the room to discover from that?

I feel and understand like you that this all a pretty crazy subject, and hits right at very core of our entire existential angst. It's not trivial thing, I have the same demons haunting my thinking. 

And I'm a hypocrite, I'm no more advanced or knowledgable than you. So all I'll say is cultivate a desire for truth and to see things differently. (Not presuming that you don't already)

Edited by lmfao

"Piercing through the whitewash will turn into the truth someday
I want to keep believing in it stubbornly; It’s just my faith. The absolute truth."

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6 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Forestluv So it means NDE are false. And god is telling a lie? 

It depends on your beliefs of what you are calling "god".

Many people are conditioned with stories of all sorts of "gods". I grew up in a fundamental Catholic home and was taught all sorts of stories about what is moral and a judgemental / punishing god. A lot of it involved guilt, shame and fear. When I was about 18 years old, I started questioning my beliefs about what this "god" is. I realized that many of those beliefs were not *my* beliefs. They were beliefs programmed into me by my parents, teachers, pastors, church community etc. I realized if I had grown up in another country I would have a different set of beliefs of "god". For example, if I grew up in a Hindu culture, I would have a different set of beliefs. If I grew up in an Islamic culture, a different set of religious beliefs. 

6 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Forestluv 

Even though everything is god as per non dualism but still human suffering are real. Every year evil stuff happen with people all around the world. Rape , Murder, Genocide etc etc.  How can you brush off suffering of people by saying everything is one and their is no other who punishes? Then why there is soo much evil in the world? 

At a human level, this is serious business. Suffering is an awful experience. One of the hardest things to surrender are notions of "good" and "bad". There is a huge price to pay for that. Yet the expansion is huge as well. I'm not denying the existence of suffering or how terrible it is to experience. That's not what I'm pointing to. 

Why do you need an external god to explain why there is evil in the world? Why would we believe there is a supernatural entity that punishes people and causes suffering? That is a terrible story. That story itself would cause me terrible suffering. I would live in fear and confusion. 

6 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Forestluv

Why good people are suffering and evil one get away. ? If there is no morality and everything good and evil is same. Then why not do evil things?

If everything is good, one cannot do evil things. We need to create constructs that some things are "good" and some things are "bad". This is part of the human experience. 

6 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@Forestluv

If evil is same as good and its LOVE as claimed by LEO, Then arent we are mistaking calling it love? How can people doing evil things with each other around the world is termed as Love? 

See its contradiction.

We just Equated EVIL with Goodness. And stated it as LOVE. 

 This is conflating absolute and relative. Your mindset is that there must be either absolute or relative. Another mindset is that there is both absolute and relative. 

For example, we could say there is unconditional Love (absolute) and conditional love (relative). Neither is "better" or "worse" than the other. There are simply different forms.

Unconditional Love is Love under any condition. It is 100% acceptance and Love. It doesn't matter what is it. Unconditional Love, Loves unconditionally.

Conditional love (relative) is love under certain conditions. Here we create ideas of what is "good" and "bad" and what is deserving of love. We could say that helping to feed starving people is good and worthy of loving. We could say that torturing babies is evil and not deserving of love. This is part of the human experience. It has a lot of value.

If the mind conflates unconditional with conditional, confusion and turmoil will arise. 

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