Why don't we let other people to die?

[Alex bAlex]

This subject might be a bit harsh but I had to ask myself this question for years - why are we bound to save other people, even when they want to die (clinical death, suicide, etc) ?

 

Moreover, as a medic/ nurse/ assistant - why are those people try to save their patients with all means even when there is evidence that by having a heart beating, the patient will be just in a vegetative state for more years to come and suffering. Also, this goes for the elderly who, by saving their lives, the rest might be just a nightmare. 

 

If I am GOD and by ending up this dream I go back to light then why won't you let me do it? 

 

NOTE: - I am not suicidal or depressed and I don't promote any self-harm behaviour - but I cannot find anyone to talk about this question with an open mind.

 

Thanks 

 

Alex  

[universe]

7 hours ago, Alex bAlex said:

If I am GOD and by ending up this dream I go back to light then why won't you let me do it? 

How do you know the "medic/ nurse/ assistant" you talk about have this mindset?

In general, our society values life way more than death.

Many factors contribute to this

Projection - People want to live and automatically assume everyone else does as well.

Survival bias - We put a lot of work into our own survival, helping to do the same confirms our own survival bias.

Ego - Fundamentally, seeing ourselves seperate from everything else keeps us in a constant fear of death.

Unability to accept reality - Lifelong habit of rejecting reality and resisting what is.

 

To add to that, death from a non-dualistic perspective is final. When someone feels bad or has pain there is always the chance to improve the situation. Either by healing/lowering the pain, mastering emotions, mindfulnes or what have you. But if someone is dead that is final.

 

Coming back to your question. You are GOD, the "medic/ nurse/ assistant" and everything. You want reality exactly the way it is. Including vegetative states and nightmares.

[Willie]

How is saving the life of someone who wants to die better than killing someone who wants to live? Either involves a lack of compassion. I see it as your body, your choice.

Also, is life inherently sacred independent of context? 

[GreenLight]

Besides the already mentioned. I would add millennia of conditioning by christianity.

I do not remember where I read this. When there was a war in asia. The Christian missionaries where all highly hysterically, knowing that they could die. The pagans were fairly neutral. While the buddhists did not care as this life was not important for them. 

[Ryan R]

@Alex bAlex

Many large hospitals and medical universities have entire departments or robust programs dedicated to the study of bioethics and medical ethics of which the subject matter of your question is a major topic of inquiry and debate.

You may be unaware, but it is everyone's right, at least in the US medical system, to have a legal document called a "Living Will". This document tells one's family and medical providers exactly what procedures and drugs one does or does not want in efforts to save their life in case they are incapacitated and unable to otherwise communicate their desires. If you are able to communicate your wishes about end of life care you of course may refuse anything used to preserve or extend your life that you wish. Living Wills often get into the specifics of degrees of life support,  end-stage conditions, vegetative states, and terminal situations.

In addition or instead of a Living Will (although we would really like you to have a Living Will too) you can also ask your doctor for a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) and/or a Do Not Intubate (DNI) order. These orders will go into your medical records to ensure that if you die in the care of that medical institution, they will not try to bring you back.

Then, there is hospice, a place and/or service dedicated to palliative care for those near the end of life so they may die naturally and with dignity. Comfort, compassion, and often pain management as death is embraced free of life prolonging drugs and procedures is what hospice is about.

Anyhow, these are some of the available options for death in our current medical system. Suicide and assisted suicide are related but different complex topics and I have no time to address them right now. Maybe later if you are interested.

[Alex bAlex]

Thank you @universe & @Ryan R It really helped me to get more understanding on this subject. I wasn't aware of "Living WIll" so I will have to have a look at it.

At the moment I am running in circles with suicide and free will/ determinism. I have to go deeper on the free will subject to understand it and then come back and analyse the suicide aspect of it before spiral into conception/abortions/ morality...

A lot of great stuff around here.

Thanks again

[Loba]

I think the most important thing in life is learning how to carry with you, to see the energy of, and to hold close to you - your death and that society needs to stop sweeping it under the rug and explore what death really means.

How can you know where you are at if you do not look death in the face?  All spiritual talents/abilities come from carrying it with you.  All phenomena comes from opening that door. 
When thinking of it and discussing it with others, I am always confused when it comes to people's reactions about death and how they try so hard to keep the other person there with them...  why would you stay here on this world when your home is over there and this is just some middle ground, something designed to set your game piece in a certain direction?  All your memories, the uncovered, undamaged souls of everyone you have come into contact, and the full scope of our power, our minds, imaginations, manifest into whatever we want.

The human being has the capability to carry this over into the next world, that's our gift.  You have to look it in the face first.

I'll write more on this later I have a lot of opinions on this topic.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Loba

[The_Truth_Seeker]

I posted something like that a while ago. It got taken down?

[Alex bAlex]

@Loba I found that usually people who are afraid to talk about this subject are very egocentric and stuck in their survival mode, hence mentioning death will mean the end of what they are fighting for day by day. 

Obviously, I consider myself lucky to find out about this work and psychedelics and I have to understand that not everyone is ready to have this kind of discussions. 

Cool song and please  let us know more about your thoughts upon this subject. 

 

@The_Truth_Seeker I've done a quick search before posting but couldn't find anything so please link you thread if you have it

Cheers

[Jodistrict]

On 3/18/2021 at 11:20 PM, Ryan R said:

@Alex bAlex

Then, there is hospice, a place and/or service dedicated to palliative care for those near the end of life so they may die naturally and with dignity. Comfort, compassion, and often pain management as death is embraced free of life prolonging drugs and procedures is what hospice is about.

 

When people are dying they beg for the drugs to alleviate their pain.   It is the pain drugs that actually  kill them.  But the most distressing part is that they aren’t allowed to die consciously.   The relatives can’t talk to their drugged out loved one because they aren't there.   The dying person gets no support and the relatives get no resolution.   What could be a meaningful experience is turned into a mechanical, inhuman, managed affair.  Death is denied to the very last moment.  I went through this with my father.  Fuck this inhuman culture.  Oh yes, they push for the DNR order.  It is all part of “pain management” and "palliative care".   

Edited March 23, 2021 by Jodistrict

[Alex bAlex]

@Jodistrict Firstly,sorry about your loss. 

Secondly, those types of cases are the one that puzzle me, and I have been in similar situation with my grandmother which was taken to hospital multiple times only to suffer more at home afterwards. 

Why are we willing to push some to live a bit more in suffering than to live them die peacefully ?

Were do we derive this moral from? Or it's more an feeling of attachment and unwilling to let it go? 

I think that "playing God" is already  putting pressure on the medical and economical system and eventually on the younger generation to come and sustain all this system. 

[Ryan R]

@Jodistrict

Condolences about your father....

 Between you and me you are completely correct that it is not uncommon that opioids, more precisely an overdose often of morphine, are a major contributing factor if not the direct cause of death of those in great suffering while in hospice. 
With that said, all drugs used in pain management are completely optional. The patient or someone with a durable power of attorney for the patient has the right to refuse any drug or treatment. In a quality hospice program alternatives like guided meditation, acupuncture, and hypnotism should be available to assist with pain and suffering.
The duty of the hospice team is to the patient as well as their family. Did you bring your concerns up with them? If this has been within the last year you could still reach out to them for some support and/or to offer your criticisms.

What would you have had hospice do differently?

[Ryan R]

@Alex bAlex And my condolences about your grandmother...

On to our topic at hand. At the risk of sounding cynical, selling a bunch of crap to supposedly extend people's lives, playing on their fears surrounding death, makes an easy tidy profit.

Besides that, as I think you already well understand the ego is The survival mechanism of the human condition. Ego wants to live. It's drive is to survive no matter what. I will add Life, God, wants to live, including through you, and this is where ego gets, and from some perspectives corrupts with selfish division, the idea from.

In addition to all of that in Western civilization the moral underpinnings you are asking about come from the Christian Church as well as the foundations of Western medicine. Suicide in it's many forms (for honor, as punishment, in sympathy, for ritual sacrifice, and of course out of fear, and many more) and the putting to death of the elderly, disabled, and ill varied from ancient civilization to civilization, but such things often grossly failed to meet our modern standards of compassionate care. Before Christianity ruled our world religiously motivated ritual suicide and assisted suicide (willing human sacrifice) was not uncommon. Christianity came on the scene with a Lord and Savior God-man/apocalyptic prophet who's claim to fame was his sacrificial death and resurrection that rewards all his loyal followers with their own resurrection after death... in paradise as vastly improved versions of themselves none the less... Do you see how suicide and martyrdom may have been a concern for the Church? How does one build a successful powerful institution if all it's most dedicated adherents have an underlying drive to kill themselves or get themselves killed.

Starting from it's origins and to this day the Church has preached and taught against suicide, including that it was an unforgivable mortal sin against God. "Secular" legal systems followed the lead of the Church. Suicide then would get you damned in the afterlife, your body disrespected, your family ostracized, all of yours and possibly all of your families property seized... and if your attempt was unsuccessful you could expect all of that plus being excommunicated and jailed.

Any sort if assisted suicide and even medical personnel not doing everything they can to preserve life is also arguably against the Hippocratic Oath and by many is considered unethical. Unless medical personnel have been notified by you to the contrary, the default position is that they are obligated to do their best to save and preserve your life and they most certainly cannot purposely take it. This is changing to some extent. There is an increasing acceptance of euthanasia amongst doctors. I forget which ones, but consensual euthanasia is now legal in just a few states in the US. And as I said in another post, although it can have very serious consequences for the caregiver (prison, license loss, fines and civil suits) ending the extreme suffering of some in hospice is definitely an off-the-books practice. 

Lastly, since suicide is our topic I want to say I have personally known two people that have killed themselves and have seen first hand how it utterly wrecks, and I mean permanently destroys the lives of, their families and friends. I've also worked with suicidal children. Most people, and I would add especially young people, who say they want to kill themselves are actually just crying out for help. This is why we try to stop them and help them, because that is what they really want and need. People who actually want to kill themselves just do it with little to no warning or cry for help. If you are lucky they may leave you a nice note. If you are unlucky the note will not be so nice.

In conclusion, kill your ego if you can, but not your Higher human Self even though your Absolute Self cannot be killed. Death is coming for your humanity very soon, likely much sooner than you think. Contemplate that often as it is healthy. Use this information to foster gratitude for what little life you have in this form and do the best you can with the gift Life has given you.

Oh, last thing. This notion of peaceful death that you and others I've seen around here have is wishful thinking to a great extent. I have sat with many dying people. Dying is typically both physically and psychologically a hell beyond measure. The moment of death is often peaceful, like a weight has been lifted from the world, but the amount of suffering most go through in the dying process can be extreme. Much of it is self-inflicted. This is why it is good to contemplate and become comfortable with death. This is why this thread is valuable. My advice to all is be sure to die before you die as it will grant you a better life and a better death. What more could we ask for, lol

[Jodistrict]

15 hours ago, Ryan R said:

@Jodistrict

What would you have had hospice do differently?

 

America manages death like orange juice.   Hospice is a profit-making stage orange industry.  I recommend just avoiding it.   A Tibetan Buddhist considers his daily meditation as a practice for his death.    

[Ryan R]

7 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

America manages death like orange juice.   Hospice is a profit-making stage orange industry.  I recommend just avoiding it.   A Tibetan Buddhist considers his daily meditation as a practice for his death.    

Ah, understood. Orange it typically is indeed. Well said. I am not conventionally a Tibetan Buddhist, but I too practice my bodily death in daily meditation... "The Tibetan Book Of the Dead", aka "The Bardo"-something, I knew of a monk who used to share it with the dying. You just reminded me. Yes, Vajrayana Buddhists seem highly proficient in this and many areas. I'm sure we could all learn a great deal from their teachings.

[Alex bAlex]

16 hours ago, Ryan R said:

@Alex bAlex And my condolences about your grandmother...

On to our topic at hand. At the risk of sounding cynical, selling a bunch of crap to supposedly extend people's lives, playing on their fears surrounding death, makes an easy tidy profit.

Besides that, as I think you already well understand the ego is The survival mechanism of the human condition. Ego wants to live. It's drive is to survive no matter what. I will add Life, God, wants to live, including through you, and this is where ego gets, and from some perspectives corrupts with selfish division, the idea from.

In addition to all of that in Western civilization the moral underpinnings you are asking about come from the Christian Church as well as the foundations of Western medicine. Suicide in it's many forms (for honor, as punishment, in sympathy, for ritual sacrifice, and of course out of fear, and many more) and the putting to death of the elderly, disabled, and ill varied from ancient civilization to civilization, but such things often grossly failed to meet our modern standards of compassionate care. Before Christianity ruled our world religiously motivated ritual suicide and assisted suicide (willing human sacrifice) was not uncommon. Christianity came on the scene with a Lord and Savior God-man/apocalyptic prophet who's claim to fame was his sacrificial death and resurrection that rewards all his loyal followers with their own resurrection after death... in paradise as vastly improved versions of themselves none the less... Do you see how suicide and martyrdom may have been a concern for the Church? How does one build a successful powerful institution if all it's most dedicated adherents have an underlying drive to kill themselves or get themselves killed.

Starting from it's origins and to this day the Church has preached and taught against suicide, including that it was an unforgivable mortal sin against God. "Secular" legal systems followed the lead of the Church. Suicide then would get you damned in the afterlife, your body disrespected, your family ostracized, all of yours and possibly all of your families property seized... and if your attempt was unsuccessful you could expect all of that plus being excommunicated and jailed.

Any sort if assisted suicide and even medical personnel not doing everything they can to preserve life is also arguably against the Hippocratic Oath and by many is considered unethical. Unless medical personnel have been notified by you to the contrary, the default position is that they are obligated to do their best to save and preserve your life and they most certainly cannot purposely take it. This is changing to some extent. There is an increasing acceptance of euthanasia amongst doctors. I forget which ones, but consensual euthanasia is now legal in just a few states in the US. And as I said in another post, although it can have very serious consequences for the caregiver (prison, license loss, fines and civil suits) ending the extreme suffering of some in hospice is definitely an off-the-books practice. 

Lastly, since suicide is our topic I want to say I have personally known two people that have killed themselves and have seen first hand how it utterly wrecks, and I mean permanently destroys the lives of, their families and friends. I've also worked with suicidal children. Most people, and I would add especially young people, who say they want to kill themselves are actually just crying out for help. This is why we try to stop them and help them, because that is what they really want and need. People who actually want to kill themselves just do it with little to no warning or cry for help. If you are lucky they may leave you a nice note. If you are unlucky the note will not be so nice.

In conclusion, kill your ego if you can, but not your Higher human Self even though your Absolute Self cannot be killed. Death is coming for your humanity very soon, likely much sooner than you think. Contemplate that often as it is healthy. Use this information to foster gratitude for what little life you have in this form and do the best you can with the gift Life has given you.

Oh, last thing. This notion of peaceful death that you and others I've seen around here have is wishful thinking to a great extent. I have sat with many dying people. Dying is typically both physically and psychologically a hell beyond measure. The moment of death is often peaceful, like a weight has been lifted from the world, but the amount of suffering most go through in the dying process can be extreme. Much of it is self-inflicted. This is why it is good to contemplate and become comfortable with death. This is why this thread is valuable. My advice to all is be sure to die before you die as it will grant you a better life and a better death. What more could we ask for, lol

This is gold Thank you @Ryan R for taking the time to clarify those things. Much appreciated. 

 

 

[Brittany]

On 3/18/2021 at 3:36 PM, Alex bAlex said:

If I am GOD and by ending up this dream I go back to light then why won't you let me do it? 

I AM GOD does not mean that "I, the ego, is God".

This is a misunderstanding.

That's the tricky thing with I AM statements. The ego uses them to clothe itself and create a solid form. And I AM GOD is a huge misunderstanding if the ego grabs unto it for clothing.

I AM GOD both includes the ego and is beyond it.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Brittany