getting out of the israeli military

[Samsonov]

 

as an israeli 19 years old, i am serving in the IDF, for 8 months now.  i have started watching actulized.org content gradually about two years ago and it really did change me in a very profound and fundemental way,and shed some light on the subject of this post.

in israel the 32 months of military service is ingraned so deeply in the culture that not joing the army is regarded as quite a radical move and those who won't are not looked kindly upon.getting released from my position will involve spending a few months in military prison.

 but as the recruitment date got closer i started to have some major second thoughts about it. but eventually due to inaction i ended up in the IDF and just finished my 8 months of training, where those thoughts and ideas kept on popping and developing thruout.

 firstly, obviously this is not an optimal enviroment for self development , my meditation habits and life purpose. sometimes i feel like this is enough of a good reason for me to get out of there. to be all-in for self actualization.

So the question here is if doing military service can reconcile with leo's teaching, radical openmindness and spirituality.

in the beginning i felt like not doing military service is selfish and acting like a social parasite. but as i learned about letting go of attachments, to my country per se, i began looking at things from a wider perspective, and can see how the IDF actually hinders humanity development and is spreading fear rather then love, and in my life, i wish to do the opposite. which makes me think that what kept me here so far is ego and fear. this video provided great help and insight:

As emanuel kant have claimed in his categrical imperitive, i too believe that by taking such action as mentioned above, i should regard it as if i am willing that the entire IDF will cease to exist, but i also believe it is an anti-war statement at the same time, which sits better for me here. so i think that by quiting i must also let go of evey bit of nationalism in me, luckily there is'nt much.

I have a lot more i would like to say buy i first want to hear your thoughts, i know this something i need to settle with myself but this is the hardest decision of my life. it is a matter realism vs idealism, compromising and making the best out of the situation vs being bold and proactive.

maybe it is all some excuse my mind makes to escape to the more comfortable life outside of the military, am i just avoiding to confront the harsh and complicated reality of living in the middleast? feel free to criticize me...

thank you for you time, and comments, truely means a lot?

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Samsonov

[No Self]

Papaji did military service. It may help you learn skills of discipline, though there's also the risk of being traumatised. The most important thing is to not have your inner state corrupted regardless of what happens on the outside.

[PurpleTree]

8 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

Your country needs a defense. And that brings peace, less fear for the people in Israel, and probably saves lives, so it brings love that way.

They also do a lot of "bad" stuff though and things which go against "peace". Watch some documentaries.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by PurpleTree

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

I see, but I think the situation there is complicated. But maybe I'm wrong and maybe it's not a excuse, whatever. I don't know.

Obviously it's very complicated, tense and it's a tough place to keep secure etc. It's also an interesting country to visit.

[Samsonov]

15 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

Your country needs a defense. And that brings peace, less fear for the people in Israel, and probably saves lives, so it brings love that way.

well, but again this is seeing things thru an israeli lens, im not saying that either side of the conflict is good or bad, im trying to get a sort of meta perspective, and then i ask myself, what are im fighting for? a piece of land i've been told belongs to a group that i've been told i am apart of. in essence, we are fighting over an identity, an israeli jew

[PurpleTree]

48 minutes ago, Samsonov said:

well, but again this is seeing things thru an israeli lens, im not saying that either side of the conflict is good or bad, im trying to get a sort of meta perspective, and then i ask myself, what are im fighting for? a piece of land i've been told belongs to a group that i've been told i am apart of. in essence, we are fighting over an identity, an israeli jew

Great way of thinking man, don't be a pawn.

Now if you do get attacked and have to defend your family and loved one's then that's something else.

 

6 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

@Samsonov No, you are fighting to protect lives. If Israel wouldn't have any defense it would get invaded and many many people would get slaughtered. And the ones who would survive would lose their freedom and get a worse life.

 

Again watch some docs

[peachboy]

@Samsonov

Do what your heart is telling you.

Sometimes the universe connects with us in ways that are counter-intuitive to the cultural beliefs that we were raised with. Sometimes, in order to evolve, we have to inject a little anarchy into the mix and go against the grain of what our immediate peer-group (including our own family) might expect of us.

Identity is a strange thing, but sometimes when I look up at the stars I automatically get a profound sense of who I am. The knowledge that brings instantly destroys any illusion of personal identity. When identity expands to include the infinite, so do your responsibilities and loyalties expand to include the infinite.

Only you can make the decision, but I suspect you already know the truth. Maybe you need just a little bit more courage?

Either way, the universe has your back. Good luck.  

 

[snowyowl]

19 hours ago, Samsonov said:

 firstly, obviously this is not an optimal enviroment for self development , my meditation habits and life purpose. sometimes i feel like this is enough of a good reason for me to get out of there. to be all-in for self actualization.

It's a tough choice whether to stand up against the mainstream culture, go to prison and potentially harm your future job prospects. I don't know about the politics & ethics of the IDF so I'll swerve that debate and look at how you can keep up a meditation practice in the army. If you can frame your meditation practice as a spiritual practice, won't they give you access to somewhere quiet where you can meditate etc? Presumably they allow religious soldiers to pray, attend services etc, so why not just talk to the padre like this is your path to God / Truth (whatever language works for you) and can they find somewhere for you to practice?  

Also what's the culture like with the other soldiers, are they open to accepting you or would you be seen as an oddball?  I'm curious how progressive and open minded young Israeli recruits are. I don't think you should feel pushed into rocking the boat if you're not comfortable to.

Best wishes and good luck! 

[AlphaAbundance]

Hey, @Samsonov

• What would happen if you leave the military? What are the consequences? What are the impacts on your career, 
• What would you do if you left the military? What are the alternatives?
• What would you do in the military? What would occur in your final 2 years?
• How could you maximize being in the military? How could you turn it into a positive? What are the benefits?
• What are the pros/cons of each decision?
• What are you leaning toward?  If I had a sniper on your ass right now, decide or die        5.. 4.. 3... 2.. 1...     What did you decide?
• How confident are you of the above decision?
• Have you researched this decision? Have you deeply contemplated, pondered, and journaled about this decision?
• What happens to others who make each decision? What happens to others in your situation?
• Have you deeply contemplated, pondered, and journaled about this decision?
• What would you want in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years down the line?
• What would you regret the most?
• What would set you up for the best life possible?
• What are the options you aren't considering? What opportunities lie beyond the military vs. not military? 
• Are there any middle options, partial options, combined options, etc.?

From my assumptions of this situation (since I do barely know shit about your situation), I would say to make sure you are 80%+ certain before making a decision. As well as to stay in the military before any rash decisions, at least 2 weeks to a month after you make your decision. 

 

 

3 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Now if you do get attacked and have to defend your family and loved one's then that's something else.

Haha nope still ego/identity

Edited November 13, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[PurpleTree]

13 minutes ago, AlphaAbundance said:

Haha nope still ego/identity

Have you read the Bhagavad Gita?

I mean it depends how you defend them, if you defend them without hate and ill feelings, staying in the moment it might be no or just minimally ego identity  

[Samsonov]

4 hours ago, snowyowl said:

It's a tough choice whether to stand up against the mainstream culture, go to prison and potentially harm your future job prospects. I don't know about the politics & ethics of the IDF so I'll swerve that debate and look at how you can keep up a meditation practice in the army. If you can frame your meditation practice as a spiritual practice, won't they give you access to somewhere quiet where you can meditate etc? Presumably they allow religious soldiers to pray, attend services etc, so why not just talk to the padre like this is your path to God / Truth (whatever language works for you) and can they find somewhere for you to practice?  

Also what's the culture like with the other soldiers, are they open to accepting you or would you be seen as an oddball?  I'm curious how progressive and open minded young Israeli recruits are. I don't think you should feel pushed into rocking the boat if you're not comfortable to.

Best wishes and good luck! 

hey,

i believe that the israeli society and especially the younger generations are extremly diversed. so its hard to tell. but generly, i want to say that my generation atleast is more progressive then you might assume as an outsider,

i live in the center near tel aviv so maybe this is not an accurate picture , but i think you can compare young israelis to young americans... perhaps a little behind them.regardless the future seems brighter

and so far i am seen as a bit of an oddball but i am accepted.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Samsonov

[snowyowl]

Sounds hopeful. I've no assumptions about Israel, or other middle eastern countries really. Also stage orange corporations and organisations are beginning to accept things like mindfulness and meditation as tools for productivity, wellbeing and achieving the flow state. We have that type of thing where I work in the public sector. You're just ahead of the curve, is all. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by snowyowl
spelling

[Samsonov]

@AlphaAbundance

first of all, i am really thankful for all of the replies.

And those are some really key questions to ponder about. but trust me, i have done enough of that. As i said i've spent the past year or so thinking about this, and i've asked myself most of what you mentioned. and regarding the 80% certainty thing, this was my mindset before but it seems like a left-brained sort of certainty is unachievable. So far it leaves me in a passive state im in right now.

AS far as answering some of the questions: my future will probably not be affected much, there are people i know who werent recruited from the first place and it is generly fine, the issue is that im already quite deeply inside the system, so the road out won't be easy.

in term of research, contemplation and so on, I did my research and wrote my self a pros/cons list, and my heart does lean toward getting out, this is why it keeps on bugging me i guess.

what i didnt really think about is what you said about finding a middleway, maybe there is something to it.

thanks alot

 

[ArchangelG]

Wow tough choice! 

My father is from Sderot, and I've visited my family there during war times. Rocket attacks 5-10 times a day so an israeli defense is unfortunately and definitely necassary.

Maybe you can do intelligence, or information security or something like that?

[Gesundheit]

@Mikael89 Israeli army does not only defend Israel. It attacks neighbouring countries. Obviously, the neighbouring countries do the same thing in a never ending circle. The difference is that Israel hits strategically on Arab military forces while Arabs hit randomly.

@Samsonov Maybe for the time to come just keep learning and expanding your perspective. You seem quite Green. Maybe it's better for you to just focus on your development without giving much thought to life-changing decisions at this point. I know I'm not being helpful here but I'm trying.

[AlphaAbundance]

@Samsonov Glad to contribute

7 hours ago, Samsonov said:

And those are some really key questions to ponder about. but trust me, i have done enough of that. As i said i've spent the past year or so thinking about this, and i've asked myself most of what you mentioned.

What are the major pros and cons of each decision?

So if you would like

Military

• Pros
  • --
  • ---
• Cons
  • ---
  • ---

Not Military

• Pros
  • ---
  • ---
• Cons
  • ----
  • ----

(With however many sub-points for each)

Also, another one that would help to know is

What does the not military plan consist of? What would you be doing? Where would you be working? How much time would you have? What are your job options? What are your options for financial solvency ---> stability ---> security?

7 hours ago, Samsonov said:

and regarding the 80% certainty thing, this was my mindset before but it seems like a left-brained sort of certainty is unachievable. So far it leaves me in a passive state im in right now.

I see what you mean

I would say some certainty is required of some form or the other. Maybe not %80, it could be less. I think it just means something along the lines of your saying you are that much confident that this is the best option for yourself.

It can be in a relative/comparative fashion like

• 70% (for option A) vs. 30% (for option B)

Or perhaps some in some "objective" fashion

• 50% (that option A is a solid to best path for me moving forward)
• 30% (that option B is a solid to best path for me moving forward)

The numbers don't really mean that much, it's just a matter of having some sort of understanding of the full implications of every decision and therefore confidence in your decisions. I would say that is pretty important in decisions of a certain magnitude.

It may be that you have some certainty in knowing that you are ok with uncertainty in this decision hahaha 

Maybe you can just completely wing it (in a sense) but I don't know about that. I would say building confidence/certainty in finding whatever decision is best would help with any passive state.

7 hours ago, Samsonov said:

AS far as answering some of the questions: my future will probably not be affected much, there are people i know who werent recruited from the first place and it is generly fine, the issue is that im already quite deeply inside the system, so the road out won't be easy.

Ok I see

What are the difficulties in leaving the system?

7 hours ago, Samsonov said:

in term of research, contemplation and so on, I did my research and wrote my self a pros/cons list, and my heart does lean toward getting out, this is why it keeps on bugging me i guess.

It may, in a sense, be ideal to leave the military, have greater freedom, and follow what you want but the full practicality may not be there. It may be similar to someone being a wage cuck and wanting to leave and start a business, be their own boss but the full practicality not being there yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusal_to_serve_in_the_IDF

https://www.huckmag.com/perspectives/reportage-2/young-refuseniks-israel-defence-force/

There seems some potential cons of prison, strained relationships, vilification, career detriments, and possibly more. It would be crucial to know what your alternative to the military would be in order to put them up against each other.

Also, there are many benefits to military service like the discipline instilled, life experience (that many many people will never have), seeing the realities of life, connections, and any other military benefits. As long as your life isn't on the line then there could be many lessons in this path. But who knows, maybe you could learn those lessons elsewhere, it could be a huge distraction and waste of time, that is limiting you on your path toward your life purpose.

Also, I think you may have made your mind but are just looking for confirmation on this forum 

On 11/12/2020 at 6:59 PM, Samsonov said:

 firstly, obviously this is not an optimal enviroment for self development , my meditation habits and life purpose. sometimes i feel like this is enough of a good reason for me to get out of there. to be all-in for self actualization.

Have you actually started self-improvement, meditating, working on your life purpose, self-actualization while in the military? Have you tested if this is possible or are you speculating about the future? Are you treating it as if something you will get started later / get started on later when you leave the military?

(I may be completely wrong but I say this because these are some of my struggles as well)

I would say test these theories while in the military (unless there is some caveat like it's easier to leave right after training or before entry or whatever) before dropping it. You've already completed your training. How do you know the military won't enhance your ability to time manage and offer many lifelong experiences and insights?

 

7 hours ago, Samsonov said:

what i didnt really think about is what you said about finding a middleway, maybe there is something to it.

This may be nonsense, but is there any way you can attempt to leave then if the effects are too great (like your exemption from service isn't granted), like you experiment with this option, then return back if it isn't what you thought. Or if it is then great you are on your best path towards self-actualization, meditation, and life purpose.

Or on the other side, test with the military, try your life purpose / self-improvement / meditation in the military then if it really is an extreme limit than you have direct experience

 

If it seems like I am biased toward the military, 'm not really suggesting that I am just offering some counter ideas to think about (as you seem to be leaning toward leaving haha) for maximal understanding and perspectives on the decision.

Then again treat everything I say with a grain of salt because I know close to nothing about your situation (just a broad idea and a little bit of information)

Edited November 14, 2020 by AlphaAbundance

[Samsonov]

1 hour ago, AlphaAbundance said:

@Samsonov Glad to contribute

What are the major pros and cons of each decision?

So if you would like

Military

• Pros
  • an oppertunity to grind myself a little with reality, meet all sorts of people and have diffreent experiences that i wouldnt put myself thru otherwise, probably
  • complete a cultural duty, which might have some benifits down the line
  • acquire commanding abilities, and some charisma
  • in the practicality of it all, I do help defend my inoccent people
  • I need to know the system well from within so later on in a life i can help to make a change for the better
  • i made some good friends here
  •  
• cons
  • "wasting almost 3 of the most cruicial and best years of my life
  •  bad for mental health, i was already in some bad places there
  • diet, i am vegan and the diet they provide there is poor
  • I may be forced to do things that are against my conscience
  • there is a lot of nonsense and plane stupidty in this system, it is often not working well and as a result can hurt me, or just be frustrating. it also cares very little about the actual soldiers.this regime is not democractic so individulism, creativity and self expression are not in the lexicon.

Not Military

Pros

• here i can really focus on self development and so forth, working on my life purpose and career
• i feel like this is the brave choice, and the choice itself, going with my intuition, will grow me alot
• Sometimes i think that in staying in the military, i will always in the back of my mind have this itch of what could have been if,so i will never be in piece there.

Cons

• the corona virus is roaring outside and would affect life more then in the IDF, which is like a bubble where everything goes as usual
• there is alot to worry about outside of the military which doesnt exist inside of it, like money, relationships(almost all of my friends are serving)

 

Also, another one that would help to know is

What does the not military plan consist of? What would you be doing? Where would you be working? How much time would you have? What are your job options? What are your options for financial solvency ---> stability ---> security?

 

I thought alot about what i would do as soon as i get out, i would live with my father and working in a casual job near home. having pleanty of free time, ill spend it all on self improvment, reading ,meditating health, i have more motivation then ever. also i would try to meet new people and work on my social skills. iwould do this until flights are availble again and would go on traveling without a plan for return. in trems of stability and security, ill be fine.

 

2 hours ago, AlphaAbundance said:

It may be that you have some certainty in knowing that you are ok with uncertainty in this decision hahaha 

Maybe you can just completely wing it (in a sense) but I don't know about that. I would say building confidence/certainty in finding whatever decision is best would help with any passive state

this i thpught much about, of having no plan b, because if im honest with myself i believe that not matter what ill choose, ill manage fine, but i must choose soon because this whole thing is getting to me  So in a way there is no best or correct decision and i now have confidence in either path.

 

2 hours ago, AlphaAbundance said:

What are the difficulties in leaving the system?

Ive seen you have done some research but this gets a little technical, so i would spare you the details.

Basically there are two roads for me, one is thru a psychiatrist, where needs to determined if you are not fit for service, which for me will involve some lying. Or i can just "refuse" as ive seen you read, this will lead me to military jail, (which is not nearly as bad as regular jail) in jail there is some luck involved with how long ill stay there, anywhere from a few days to a few months. basically until they give up,(or i).

2 hours ago, AlphaAbundance said:

Have you actually started self-improvement, meditating, working on your life purpose, self-actualization while in the military? Have you tested if this is possible or are you speculating about the future? Are you treating it as if something you will get started later / get started on later when you leave the military?

in training it was impossible, the only thing i did is read some books, secretly;). but from now on it is going to be very different, ill have some free time here and there, probably every day, but the issue is the instability, hard to build habits when your schedule is so unpredictable. so if ill stay ill try my best , but for sure it is far from optimal conditions.

I think what i need is a deadline. tommorow my week long vication after the training period is over and im coming back for the rest of my service( so they think) so ill give myself two weeks to decide(!) because as i said, yes there are some insight to learn probably, but there are insight to learn from the act of leaving, so... making a desicion is cruicial, and going for one side or another 100%

2 hours ago, AlphaAbundance said:

This may be nonsense, but is there any way you can attempt to leave then if the effects are too great (like your exemption from service isn't granted), like you experiment with this option, then return back if it isn't what you thought. Or if it is then great you are on your best path towards self-actualization, meditation, and life purpose.

 

It is possible that ill go to jail and somehow wont get released, but i think the current unit im in won't accept me back.  but after getting the certificate that says im free, there is no turning back,iy basically says im not fit for service. well maybe if i really push hard ill be able to get in the IDF but get some shitty job or something.

 

2 hours ago, AlphaAbundance said:

 

Also, I think you may have made your mind but are just looking for confirmation on this forum  

If it seems like I am biased toward the military, 'm not really suggesting that I am just offering some counter ideas to think about (as you seem to be leaning toward leaving haha) for maximal understanding and perspectives on the decision.

 

yeah you are on to me...   Truly im looking for something, some proof that either decision is right, im fooling myself into thinking that there is a piece of information that will determine things for me, but there is'nt, this is all on me, the hardest decision in my short life, and the answer must come from within.

@AlphaAbundance  it doesnt seem like you are biased, you have been incredibly objective and open,

 You have been patience and caring, so thank you for your effort 

here is a quote that i find relatable right now:

“God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

-Reinhold Niebuhr-