I think that I broke trough [crying]

[meow_meow]

As Always, I'll start my topic with my actualization stats.
So I've been on this journey of self help, personal development and self actualization for about 1 year now.
Meditating almost daily ~35mins.
For the past ~6-7months doing self-inquiry for 45mins, done contemplating death, do nothing etc.

No psychedelics.

Last months have been mind blowing, full of fear, panic attacks, sleepless nights, tears etc.

So for the last few months I really started to get meditation and self-inquiry "the right way" and focusing my attention on "I".

Took me a while to realize that I've been bamboozling myself by questioning  - What is "I" or Who is "I"? While "I" is the one who's asking, and therefore existing only if "I" claims that it exists. Fuels it's on existence.

Few days ago I realized that I'm attaching "I" to everything that happens to this body. "I hear, I see, I walk."
But If "I" exists only if "I" create "I" then it means that... oh shit, its not the "I" who is hearing, seeing or walking.
It's just "I" attaching itself to everything that is happening. And everything happens even if no "I" is present.

And the final realization that's still fresh and happened yesterday was "I think" and "My thoughts" and "My decisions."
If there can be moments of no I then.. absolutely everything that happens, has happened and will happen to this body, every decision that will be made by it has nothing to do with me, and has never been.

I'm a 27 year old dude and I'm sitting here crying while realizing this.

This changes nothing and everything...

Thoughts? Tips? Ideas?

[Fran11]

You've realised "no-self". You have realised that the entity which sees your visual field, hears your auditory field, thinks your thoughts, moves your body, etc doesn't exist. 

Your whole life you believed that you were an observer watching the screen of conciousenss and now you have seen that the screen is actually self-aware. 

The fake I comes into existance by a low level of conciousness which posibilitates it's identification with the "psychological I".

Now you need to go for the actual experience of ego death, there's still a long way to go!

Edited August 23, 2020 by Fran11

[meow_meow]

7 minutes ago, Fran11 said:

Now you need to go for the actual experience of ego death, there's still a long way to go!

I somehow kinda already had a little breadcrumb of an idea - "I have to let myself go" somewhere in the back of my head intuitively.
I can already feel how much of an emotional challenge it will be. I'll probably take a few days off self-inquiry before doing it again, but that's nothing new anymore.

Any tips on this?

[Dodo]

41 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

As Always, I'll start my topic with my actualization stats.
So I've been on this journey of self help, personal development and self actualization for about 1 year now.
Meditating almost daily ~35mins.
For the past ~6-7months doing self-inquiry for 45mins, done contemplating death, do nothing etc.

No psychedelics.

Last months have been mind blowing, full of fear, panic attacks, sleepless nights, tears etc.

So for the last few months I really started to get meditation and self-inquiry "the right way" and focusing my attention on "I".

Took me a while to realize that I've been bamboozling myself by questioning  - What is "I" or Who is "I"? While "I" is the one who's asking, and therefore existing only if "I" claims that it exists. Fuels it's on existence.

Few days ago I realized that I'm attaching "I" to everything that happens to this body. "I hear, I see, I walk."
But If "I" exists only if "I" create "I" then it means that... oh shit, its not the "I" who is hearing, seeing or walking.
It's just "I" attaching itself to everything that is happening. And everything happens even if no "I" is present.

And the final realization that's still fresh and happened yesterday was "I think" and "My thoughts" and "My decisions."
If there can be moments of no I then.. absolutely everything that happens, has happened and will happen to this body, every decision that will be made by it has nothing to do with me, and has never been.

I'm a 27 year old dude and I'm sitting here crying while realizing this.

This changes nothing and everything...

Thoughts? Tips? Ideas?

Words are inadequate... I have been talking to my stage red friend about things like this and it just doesn't pass  I've tried so hard to explain these things in an experiential way, but my friend just keeps being in his head and weaving theories. 

[Fran11]

51 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

Any tips on this?

Self-Inquiry is one of the best methods for long term dismanteling of the ego, along with permanent mindfulness. But it's hard to experience ego death at least for the first times just by self-inquiriyng. You need either to achieve one pointed concentration on an object, complete abscence of thoughts both gross and subtle (by resting your attention on awareness, objectsless meditation), or use psychedelics.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Fran11

[Breakingthewall]

@meow_meow great. I read many times. Try to say goodbye to that bored "I"

Edited August 23, 2020 by Breakingthewall

[meow_meow]

10 hours ago, Fran11 said:

But it's hard to experience ego death at least for the first times just by self-inquiriyng. You need either to achieve one pointed concentration on an object, complete abscence of thoughts both gross and subtle (by resting your attention on awareness, objectsless meditation), or use psychedelics.

Ok, this is bad news.
I don't have access to psyches in my region, neither have I ever tried them. Travel is on stand-by due to covid. 

So this leaves me with the hard way, I like how you mentioned the subtle thoughts, they are the sneaky ones.

Up untill now during my self-inquiry sessions I was focusing my attention on I.. after this realisation of "no-self" I really don't see any point of continuing it this way.

So what you're suggesting is, rather than focusing attention on "I"  I should focus my attention on awareness without thoughts?
I'm not yet quite sure what awareness is and how exactly to focus on it, do you mean to focus un just direct experience without the presence of "I" and thoughts?

[Fran11]

6 hours ago, meow_meow said:

So what you're suggesting is, rather than focusing attention on "I"  I should focus my attention on awareness without thoughts?
I'm not yet quite sure what awareness is and how exactly to focus on it, do you mean to focus un just direct experience without the presence of "I" and thoughts?

Strictly speaking you can't focus on awareness because it's not an object. Consider that anything that you can put your attention on,  is an object INSIDE awareness. However when you advance enoguh with meditation you learn to rest/relax your attention without putting it on any object (you may call it "objectless meditation", "resting as awareness", even "focusing on awareness" because altough not technically correct it may feel like that). 

Like I said, you can break through meditating on an object also, if you achieve one-pointed concentration (if you feel like you have achieved and nothing happens, it's becouse of subtle abstract thoughts which you don't have the mindfulness to notice yet)

In conclussion, completly stilling the mind either by deep concentration or deep relaxation is generally what it takes to experience ego dissolution (at least for the fist times and without psychodelics).

Edited August 24, 2020 by Fran11

[Rujan Mehar Bajracha]

@Dodo Hey I guess you know about spiral dynamic well. Can you see that all spiral dynamics are one ?

[Bulgarianspirit]

You became conscious that there is no free will.

A big epiphany indeed. What you can do is enjoy the show and accept what is going on and what has happened,including loving yourself.

[Dodo]

4 hours ago, Rujan Mehar Bajracha said:

@Dodo Hey I guess you know about spiral dynamic well. Can you see that all spiral dynamics are one ?

am gonna tell you this when I reach the stage turquoise 

[Flyboy]

23 hours ago, meow_meow said:

As Always, I'll start my topic with my actualization stats.
So I've been on this journey of self help, personal development and self actualization for about 1 year now.
Meditating almost daily ~35mins.
For the past ~6-7months doing self-inquiry for 45mins, done contemplating death, do nothing etc.

No psychedelics.

Last months have been mind blowing, full of fear, panic attacks, sleepless nights, tears etc.

So for the last few months I really started to get meditation and self-inquiry "the right way" and focusing my attention on "I".

Took me a while to realize that I've been bamboozling myself by questioning  - What is "I" or Who is "I"? While "I" is the one who's asking, and therefore existing only if "I" claims that it exists. Fuels it's on existence.

Few days ago I realized that I'm attaching "I" to everything that happens to this body. "I hear, I see, I walk."
But If "I" exists only if "I" create "I" then it means that... oh shit, its not the "I" who is hearing, seeing or walking.
It's just "I" attaching itself to everything that is happening. And everything happens even if no "I" is present.

And the final realization that's still fresh and happened yesterday was "I think" and "My thoughts" and "My decisions."
If there can be moments of no I then.. absolutely everything that happens, has happened and will happen to this body, every decision that will be made by it has nothing to do with me, and has never been.

I'm a 27 year old dude and I'm sitting here crying while realizing this.

This changes nothing and everything...

Thoughts? Tips? Ideas?

It's funny you post this today, I had the same realization last night.  I couldn't sleep and was doing self-inquiry under the stars, and realized that it was the very idea of "I" that needed to dissolve.  Of course, this proved difficult

I think we're on the right track, though the meditation is getting very challenging at this stage, at least for me.  It feels like pounding on a wall that you know isn't real, and yet still hurts when you smash against it.  In some ways this is the part of the journey that requires the most faith... when it's really hard, you've come a long way, and still haven't gotten there, and still don't KNOW that any of this is actually real.

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Flyboy said:

It's funny you post this today, I had the same realization last night.  I couldn't sleep and was doing self-inquiry under the stars, and realized that it was the very idea of "I" that needed to dissolve.  Of course, this proved difficult

I think we're on the right track, though the meditation is getting very challenging at this stage, at least for me.  It feels like pounding on a wall that you know isn't real, and yet still hurts when you smash against it.  In some ways this is the part of the journey that requires the most faith... when it's really hard, you've come a long way, and still haven't gotten there, and still don't KNOW that any of this is actually real.

I had an idea. What if we replace I with O.

I implies 1, Someone.  O implies 0,  noone.

Om going to meditate. O feel very excited 

[Javfly33]

Welcome to the Truth

[meow_meow]

On 8/24/2020 at 9:32 PM, Flyboy said:

... I think we're on the right track, though the meditation is getting very challenging at this stage, at least for me.  It feels like pounding on a wall that you know isn't real ...

Which meditation practice are you using to 'smash against the wall' ?
What exactly do you mean by smashing against it?
 

On 8/25/2020 at 0:24 AM, Javfly33 said:

Welcome to the Truth

So that's it? That's all there is to realize about the Truth?

On 8/24/2020 at 3:50 PM, Fran11 said:

In conclussion, completly stilling the mind either by deep concentration or deep relaxation is generally what it takes to experience ego dissolution (at least for the fist times and without psychodelics).

Do you have any guidelines for me how to practice meditation (which form to use) to advance it to the level needed so I can rest my attention without putting it on any object, as you mentioned?

[Flyboy]

When meditating on awareness, I try to get as close to the "now" as possible... it's actually really difficult to be PRESENT 100%, so this is kind of like an asymptotic attempt where you stay closer and closer to the present with your attention.  In addition, I try to soak up every perception--sight, sound, touch, smell, feeling... and without thinking about any of them, let them flow through me while gently asking the question "Who am I?  Who is aware?  What is awareness?"

When I do this it kind of feels like my attention goes "back" onto the unperceivable wall of my awareness.  This really does feel like a wall, where the attention can go no further back.  I have not succeeded in breaking through it, though after doing this for some time it does feel like awareness starts to change--almost like you're getting close to something.  I've had full-body shivers occur and hints of a big wave coming, though as yet it hasn't.

The chapter on contemplation in the "Book of Not Knowing" gives some really pointers for setting up your attention like this (like Intent, Creating possibility, Focus, Openness, Wonder).  Highly recommend reading that book if you have not done so, I think it is critical groundwork.

Has anyone else been to this point I'm describing (the wall of awareness) and broken through it?  What is that like?

[WaveInTheOcean]

On 23.8.2020 at 9:20 PM, meow_meow said:

Thoughts? Tips? Ideas?

If you as a person ( ' I ' ) is an illusion, as you have found out, how does this change the way you will live your live, behave, etc?

[meow_meow]

21 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

If you as a person ( ' I ' ) is an illusion, as you have found out, how does this change the way you will live your live, behave, etc?

I don't think it changes the way I will behave. I don't see how "I" really can change anything. From this point I assume that every single one of my decisions was a result of to what my brain was exposed to. (Started self help because stumbled upon Eliot Hulse -> saw benefits, listened to other teachers etc) everything just happened, The I didn't do shit. I believe the I is needed for the human psyche so that the human can operate and function normally.

21 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Has anyone else been to this point I'm describing (the wall of awareness) and broken through it?  What is that like?

Ahh, weird. I've been practicing meditation as just sitting still with eyes closed and actively "Letting go" of thoughts for ~35 mins daily then straight after that switched to self-inquiry for 45 mins, where I do the same thing that you call meditation. - Trying to bring attention to the present moment (senses) and questioning the I, and just "looking" at "I" without thoughts, judgements etc untill this realization popped up.

But I really don't feel any wall or any obstacles, just thoughts as distractions.

Edited August 30, 2020 by meow_meow

[Seraphim]

12 minutes ago, meow_meow said:

I don't think it changes the way I will behave. I don't see how "I" really can change anything. From this point I assume that every single one of my decisions was a result of to what my brain was exposed to. (Started self help because stumbled upon Eliot Hulse -> saw benefits, listened to other teachers etc) everything just happened, The I didn't do shit. I believe the I is needed for the human psyche so that the human can operate and function normally.

I believe the human with its mind and soul does a lot of things with its free will. The human can discover its true self and be aware of it all the time, and lose the sense of being the body, but the human is still very alive and connected to itself, choosing things, being influenced by things. And discovering its true self will naturally change how the human acts, for the better.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Seraphim