Is Leo's view of time correct?

[Anderz]

@Artsu I interpret Christ as being the only begotten son since there is only one Word of God. I don't even know whether Jesus actually existed as a historical person or not. But what Jesus said seems like true knowledge to me, although in metaphors and parables, such as Jesus saying:

Quote

"Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!" - John 8:58

In the beginning the Word and God are the same thing and all there is, but then the Word became manifest in the form of Christ and this it the beginning of creation so of course Christ is before Abraham was born. On the other hand, as it says in John 1, the Word has created everything, including us, so we and Christ are the same Word unfolding.

I read that in Christianity the Body of Christ means the churchgoers. But that seems too limiting to me. The Body of Christ I think means all of humanity in Christ consciousness.

Quote

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you." - John 14:20

The Bible is ultimately about nonduality it seems, just like all other major religions. And in nonduality all time is always now, even the beginning of time is now. So the Word made manifest happened now. It's a real mind twister but it makes logical sense to me.

[Artsu]

@Anderz So if Christ is something that a person becomes - Jesus was the first but there are many - does that mean that the only begotten son of God, is more of an abstraction rather than an actual entity?

I am certain that Jesus was a real, historical person. However, many of the sayings attributed to him were not said by him or were distorted.

 

Jesus speaks of the mustard seed that grows into the biggest tree, or the yeast that the woman mixes into the dough to make it leavened through. This is speaking of the divine love entering into a person and growing.

[Anderz]

@Artsu It says in the Bible that Jesus is the Word made flesh. That to me means a physical human being. But Jesus also said that he and the Father are one, so Christ to me means all of manifested reality, while Jesus the man represents the whole Word as a person. And Christ consciousness is the same as self-realization or what it's called in nonduality.

But something that puzzled me right now is that if the Father is the unmanifested and infinite Word, and the Son is the manifested Word, then what is the Holy Spirit?! It's a Holy Trinity and I have heard that the idea of a trinity exists in other religions too. Then I came up with the idea that the Holy Spirit means consciousness!

Consciousness is an undivided whole, and holy as in Holy Spirit means whole. And Spirit means that it's not something material nor something unmanifested. And consciousness is truly timeless in the sense that consciousness is always the immovable witnessing/experiencing in the now.

[Artsu]

1 hour ago, Anderz said:

@Artsu It says in the Bible that Jesus is the Word made flesh. That to me means a physical human being. But Jesus also said that he and the Father are one, so Christ to me means all of manifested reality, while Jesus the man represents the whole Word as a person. And Christ consciousness is the same as self-realization or what it's called in nonduality.

But something that puzzled me right now is that if the Father is the unmanifested and infinite Word, and the Son is the manifested Word, then what is the Holy Spirit?! It's a Holy Trinity and I have heard that the idea of a trinity exists in other religions too. Then I came up with the idea that the Holy Spirit means consciousness!

Consciousness is an undivided whole, and holy as in Holy Spirit means whole. And Spirit means that it's not something material nor something unmanifested. And consciousness is truly timeless in the sense that consciousness is always the immovable witnessing/experiencing in the now.

Ah, I like your thinking, but you are mistaken.

Jesus is as I described him earlier. Christ is different from Jesus. Jesus was the first Christ, but Christ is universal and multiple.

Actually, you could think of the Holy Spirit more as the manifestation of God. The Holy Spirit is God's instrument for acting in the world(s). (I forget, perhaps Holy Spirit only exists in the physical/first world, but I feel like it is in the spirit realms as well).

Christ is as I mentioned, the perfection in the divine love. Jesus was the first to obtain both divine love (at least on earth, I am unsure beyond that) and the first (on earth) to be perfected in it. This makes him the first Christ (the Original Christ or OC as I refer to him as :P). There are also other Christs that have come since.

Consciousness is different from this, and is just what it is. Consciousness. I don't know how it relates to anything beyond that.

[Anderz]

@Artsu I haven't looked into the difference between Jesus and Christ much. My main point is that the Word of God is the whole of our reality. And the Word of God is the same as Brahman in Hinduism. The Word is the timeless Absolute that gives rise to time and our manifested reality. And the Word is a point in Indra's net in Buddhism that I posted about earlier.

But if the Word is just a point, then what is the whole Indra's net? The answer (well, my answer) is that Indra's net is Para Brahman:

Quote

"Para Brahman (Sanskrit:परब्रह्मन्) (IAST: Para Brahman) is the "Highest Brahman" that which is beyond all descriptions and conceptualisations. It is described in Hindu texts as the formless (in the sense that it is devoid of Maya) spirit (soul) that eternally pervades everything, everywhere in the universe and whatever is beyond.[1]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para_Brahman

So I often look at it from as big perspective as possible. Only from such view have I managed to get the different spiritual traditions and religions compatible with each other.

And interestingly, someone mentioned Indra's net in a comment about The Wolfram Physics Project which has a graph as the foundation for physical reality. Indra's net is what in graph theory is called a simple complete undirected graph.

Religions, spirituality, science, logic and my own experience of reality, I want to have a consistent picture of all that, including what the nature of time is.

[Artsu]

12 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@Artsu I haven't looked into the difference between Jesus and Christ much. My main point is that the Word of God is the whole of our reality. And the Word of God is the same as Brahman in Hinduism. The Word is the timeless Absolute that gives rise to time and our manifested reality. And the Word is a point in Indra's net in Buddhism that I posted about earlier.

But if the Word is just a point, then what is the whole Indra's net? The answer (well, my answer) is that Indra's net is Para Brahman:

So I often look at it from as big perspective as possible. Only from such view have I managed to get the different spiritual traditions and religions compatible with each other.

And interestingly, someone mentioned Indra's net in a comment about The Wolfram Physics Project which has a graph as the foundation for physical reality. Indra's net is what in graph theory is called a simple complete undirected graph.

Religions, spirituality, science, logic and my own experience of reality, I want to have a consistent picture of all that, including what the nature of time is.

This is interesting, and I will hopefully reply more later, as I do have an interest in graph theory for example, but what I will say for now is:

I think of the word of God as being God "speaking", in the true language. This gives form to creation, such as our reality. As willing beings, we do not necessarily adhere to God's word, but we can become aligned with it, through prayer for instance.

Yes, this word comes from absolutes, and is what gives rise to our reality. The Christ principle is separate from this, however I do believe they are related. I am not sure at this point in time what the relation is, but this is something I can investigate.

[Anderz]

@Artsu The overall Christian perspective I have figured out so far (without the Holy Spirit this time) is that the Father and the Son are one, and at the same time the Father is greater than the Son, and by Himself the Son can do nothing and only acts according to the will of the Father.

[Artsu]

24 minutes ago, Anderz said:

@Artsu The overall Christian perspective I have figured out so far (without the Holy Spirit this time) is that the Father and the Son are one, and at the same time the Father is greater than the Son, and by Himself the Son can do nothing and only acts according to the will of the Father.

All of that is true from what I can tell.

All people are children of God, but the Son being the Christ is at-one with the Father. I think of it similarly to this: suppose you were meditating in a forest and felt that you were "at one with nature". At that moment, you have a deep connection with nature, but you are only a single person within it. This is similar to how it is for Christ. They are at-one with God at all times, but still a single being. They get their created nature from God, and only can act according to what is allowed of them. They learn from God. They align themselves with the Will of God.

So, the Father is much greater than any who can be considered a Son. Perhaps Sonhood/Daughterhood could be considered a form of universal at-oneness with the Father.

[Member]

2 hours ago, Anderz said:

But if the Word is just a point, then what is the whole Indra's net? The answer (well, my answer) is that Indra's net is Para Brahman:

 

[seeking_brilliance]

One interpretation can be :

The father - unmanifest infinite potential 

Holy spirit - consciousness, both 'material' Manifestation and immaterial - (the mother) 

The son - prefect marriage of consciousness and Manifestation. For all we know has only manifested in humanity. 

Jesus -  was like leo of his time. Basically trying to explain all this. Was made to be a God in religion. 

[Anderz]

Science today has physical models that are the same in both directions, past and future. One way science attempts to explain the arrow of time is to propose that the universe started from a state of incredibly low entropy, and from there the entropy continuously increases. But where does the complexity in the universe come from? Low entropy means order but it doesn't automatically mean high complexity.

And entropy means disorder, so are we supposed to believe that the universe started from a state of low entropy and then through increase of disorder that it has led to today's world with the internet, airplanes, dogs and cats? That scenario is so unlikely that it's like the analogy of how a hurricane sweeping through a junkyard will produce a Boeing 747.

I suggest that the arrow of time is a result of increasing complexity, not increasing entropy. Science today doesn't even have valid definition of complexity. I define complexity as information structured as holons.

Quote

"A holon (Greek: ὅλον, holon neuter form of ὅλος, holos "whole") is something that is simultaneously a whole and a part. ... The first observation was influenced by Herbert A. Simon's parable of the two watchmakers—in which Simon concludes that complex systems evolve from simple systems much more rapidly when there are stable intermediate forms present in the evolutionary process than if they are not present.

The second observation was made by Koestler himself in his analysis of hierarchies and stable intermediate forms in non-living matter (atomic and molecular structure), living organisms, and social organizations." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)

Evolution, then, is a consequence of the formation of more and more complex holons. Example of holons are atoms which are parts of molecules which are parts of cells which are parts of multicellular organisms. Evolution is not only a biological process. The whole universe evolves, including things like science, society and technology.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Anderz

[Anderz]

Manifested reality is a continuous increase of complexity. That's change. But it's just an increase of information where the past information still remains, so change is no change. And choice is a result of past moments lacking enough complexity to determine the direction of life. Choice is no choice. Once the direction becomes known, choice becomes obsolete. Time is change. There is no additional substance or process of time. And since change is no change, time is no time. Time is a revelation, not a process.

[Member]

6 hours ago, Anderz said:

Time is a revelation, not a process.

I would put it this way:

Present is revelation of past choices, eureka moment.

Past choices are re-creation, copy, cloning.

Future is creation, novelty, evolution.

[Anderz]

@Member According to my view all past choices are information in the now. And only that! So it's a kind of illusion of a past separate from the now. But that contradicts our experience of free will, at least in ordinary consciousness. Many nonduality teachers talk about how there is no choice. Some of the most hardcore nonduality teachers, such as Tony Parsons and Jim Newman even say that nothing ever happens.

My own experience is that I have free will, and that I have made choices in the past. But logic tells me that it's more likely that I don't have actual free will and that the past is only now. So I need more practical experience before I know with more certainty whether my theory is real or not.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Anderz

[Artsu]

21 hours ago, seeking_brilliance said:

One interpretation can be :

The father - unmanifest infinite potential 

Holy spirit - consciousness, both 'material' Manifestation and immaterial - (the mother) 

The son - prefect marriage of consciousness and Manifestation. For all we know has only manifested in humanity. 

Jesus -  was like leo of his time. Basically trying to explain all this. Was made to be a God in religion. 

No offense to Leo, but Jesus was far above Leo. We have a spiritual community here, and that is a great service to mankind, but Jesus shaped the face of the planet as we know it. He represents the turning point in history, since the birth of man!

Edited July 5, 2020 by Artsu

[Member]

@Anderz I used to be a hardcore determinist but recently, I gave up to the idea that we have no free will because of the damage it does to Self. Apparently, all of our choices are predetermined and there's no real 'I' participating in the future creation, so there's the illusion that your future is already settled. But the future is branching in all the directions like the unpredictability of a vast interactive network of neurons in the brain. IT is information everywhere! So you actually get INFINITE choices to pick from, which makes the will Infinite Freedom. It can't be more free than that!

Edited July 5, 2020 by Member

[Anderz]

@Member Stephen Wolfram has a great concept of free will based on what he calls computational irreducibility.

Quote

"The empirical fact is that the world of simple programs contains a great diversity of behavior, but, because of undecidability, it is impossible to predict what they will do before essentially running them. ... Computational irreducibility may also provide a scientifically-based resolution for free will." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_irreducibility

So even if the universe is deterministic, it's not like in Laplace's mechanical determinism where the future can be predicted. With computational irreducibility it's impossible, even in theory, to fully know the future. And our personal choices are a part of making the universe happen. We cannot "cheat" and jump ahead into the future.

[seeking_brilliance]

@Artsu and that's just the story of a man that we don't even know for sure existed. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[Artsu]

16 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

@Artsu and that's just the story of a man that we don't even know for sure existed. 

Check out truth for all people .com man, Jesus can be channelled by mediums.

[Member]

2 hours ago, Anderz said:

We cannot "cheat" and jump ahead into the future.

Maybe you can't know the future in a million years from now on but you can predict the outcomes in the short term and take giant leaps worth of a million years. We humans are made of programs and we can predict what they will do before running them. The mind is the greatest programmer/architect of all time. Change the rules/codes instead of repeating them and you will change the course of history.