Bobby's perspective vs actualized.org

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Rather than dicking around with elephant-man, why not cut straight to the chase: You are God imagining all of reality. There is no higher truth than this. Devote yourself to realizing that. And that will be the highest bhakti.

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura Hey, love is blind. Stop judging me for my fetishes ?.

At the end of the day, regardless of the practices we do, we still live in this limited human form. Why not cut straight to the chase? Because the human is prone to thinking that he has done it on his own, he realized the Truth! He has spoken with the Father face to face and lived!

How many miracles have you performed recently, Leo? Any walking on water yet?

Having a beloved one is not so bad, it keeps your ego in check and we both know that we need it.

[Dino D]

3 hours ago, jimwell said:

Is this the point where Jesus, Osho and Sadhguru are at now? Is there anybody alive aside from Sadhguru who is at this point? 

Osho and sadguru can never stand on the same page with Jesus...

The first two are obvius jerks, may they be enlightened... if the Jusus story and power is true, than he was so in tune that he could heal, walk on water and what not, those two are also buisiness man who love attention and they smart appearance... they are expensive, very expensive, jesus is free and so on...

Even if the Jesus story aint true, that false story can never be compered with the facts about osho and sadg. Thats not the same ,,level,, not even close...

Edited January 25, 2020 by Dino D

[Nahm]

4 hours ago, mandyjw said:

We all have objects of devotion, and "symbols" in our life such as these, it could be a beloved childhood pet or toy. It's not just a cat. 

Cart’s before the horse. ?

4 hours ago, jimwell said:

Is this the point where Jesus, Osho and Sadhguru are at now? Is there anybody alive aside from Sadhguru who is at this point? 

You’re believing your thoughts that there’s a Sadhguru, etc. If “Sadhguru” is a word you learned...what is that ? What is Sadhguru without your labels of Sadhguru, human, man, enlightened, guru, etc, etc...?  What is Jesus but a story within your story? What did he tell you but this exactly? How do you know he is not you, telling you?

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

How many miracles have you performed recently, Leo? Any walking on water yet?

Only your existence. ? (Minus the insistent label of “Leo”.)

Love you man. 

Maybe there’s just no such thing as a ‘perfect enlightenment’...? Liberating, no? 

♥️??

[tsuki]

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Be that as it may, the charioteer of the Arcanum “The Chariot” is the victor over trials, i.e. the temptations, and if he is master, then it is thanks to himself. He is alone, standing in his chariot; no one is present to applaud him or to pay homage to him; he has no weapons—the sceptre that he holds not being a weapon. If he is master, his mastership was acquired in solitude and he owes it to the trials alone, and not to anyone or anything external to himself.

The victory achieved in solitude…what glory and what danger it comprises at one and the same time! It is the only real glory, for it in no way depends on human favour and judgement; it is intrinsic glory—the real radiance of the aura become luminous. It is, however, at the same time the most real and the most serious spiritual danger which exists. “Pride” and “vaingloriousness”, the traditional names which one gives to it, do not suffice to characterise it in an adequate way. It is more than this. It is, rather, a kind of mystical megalomania, where one deifies the regulating centre of one’s own being, one’s ego, and where one sees the divine only within oneself and becomes blind to the divine above and outside of oneself. The “higher Self” is then experienced as the supreme and unique Self of the world, although it is only higher in relation to the ordinary, empirical self, and it is far from the supreme and unique being…far from being God, in other words.

It would be as well, now, to dwell on the problem of identification of the self with the higher Self and of the higher Self with God.

C. G. Jung who, after having explored the sexual or “Freudian” layer, and then that of the will-to-power or “Adlerian” layer, of the unconscious (i.e. latent or occult consciousness) of the human being, encountered a spiritual (mystical, gnostic and magical) layer during the course of his clinical and psychotherapeutic experience. Instead of drawing back from it or extricating himself from it through a corrosive “explanation”, he had the courage and honesty to set himself to the laborious study of the phenomenology of this layer of the unconscious. Now, this work proved fruitful. Jung discovered here not only the causes of certain psychic disorders, but also the profound and intimate process that he designated as the “process of individuation”, which is nothing other than the gradual birth of another self(Jung called it the “Self”) higher to oneself or one’s ordinary ego. The discovery of the process of the “second birth” prompted him to extend the range of his exploratory work considerably, notably to include symbolism, mystery rituals and the comparative study of contemporary and ancient religions. Now, this broadening of his field of exploration also proved fruitful. Jung’s arrival at his discovery (which at first racked him, preventing him from speaking of it to a living soul for fifteen years) had its train of consequences, including the knowledge and description of some dangers or temptations belonging to the way of initiation and the process of individuation which corresponds to it. One of these dangers—which are at the same time trials or temptations—is that which Jung designated by the term “inflation”, which signifies the state of consciousness of the self inflated to excess, and which is known in psychiatry in its extreme manifestation by the term “megalomania”.

Therefore, here we are concerned with a range of psychic phenomena, which to begin with show up in relatively innocent forms—such as a high opinion of oneself which is not entirely justified, or the somewhat exaggerated desire to have one’s own way—which become quite dangerous when they manifest as a disparaging negativity towards everyone…the faculties of appreciation, gratitude and worship being concentrated upon oneself; and which eventually signify a catastrophe that is rarely curable, when they reveal themselves as obsession with easily recognisable illusions, or megalomania, pure and simple. Here, then, are the principal dangers of inflation: exaggerated importance attached to oneself, superiority complex tending towards obsession and, lastly, megalomania. The first degree signifies a practical task for work upon oneself; the second degree is a serious trial; whilst the third is a catastrophe. What is it a question of in the process of inflation? Let us look first at what Jung himself says about it:

The “superordinate personality” is the total man, i.e. man as he really is, not as he appears to himself. To this wholeness the unconscious psyche also belongs, which has its requirements and needs just as consciousness has…I usually describe the “superordinate personality” as the “self”, thus making a sharp distinction between the ego, which, as is well known, extends only as far as the conscious mind, and the whole of the personality, which includes the unconscious as well as the conscious component. The ego is thus related to the “self” as part to the whole. To that extent the self is superordinate. Moreover, the self is felt empirically not as subject but as object, and this by reason of its unconscious component, which can only come to consciousness indirectly, by way of projection. (C. G. Jung and C. Kerényi, Introduction to a Science of Mythology, trsl. R. F. C. Hull, London, 1951, pp. 223–224)

Anonymous . Meditations on the Tarot (pp. 152-153). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

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Now, inflation is the principal risk that attends each person who seeks the experience of depth, the experience of what is occult, which lives and works behind the facade of phenomena of ordinary consciousness. Therefore, inflation constitutes the principal danger and trial for occultists, esotericists, magicians, gnostics and mystics. Monasteries and spiritual orders have always known this, thanks to the immense pillar of experience which they have accumulated over millennia in the domain of the profound life. This is why their whole spiritual practice is based on the cultivation of humility by such means as the practice of obedience, the examination of conscience and the reciprocal brotherly help of members of the community.

Anonymous . Meditations on the Tarot (p. 156). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

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The abstract metaphysician, who arranges worlds according to an order that he has chosen, can lose all interest for the particular and for the individual, in such a way that he comes to consider human beings to be almost as insignificant as insects. He regards them only from above. Seen from his metaphysical height, they lose all proportion and become for him small or almost insignificant—whilst he, the metaphysician, is great, since he participates in great metaphysical things, which clothe him in grandeur.

The reformer who wants to correct or save humanity easily falls victim to the temptation of considering himself as the active centre of the passive circle of humanity. He feels himself as the bearer of a mission of universal significance; therefore he feels himself to be more and more important.

The practising occultist, esotericist or Hermeticist (if he is not practising, he is only a metaphysician or reformer) experiences the higher forces which work beyond his consciousness and which make their entrance there. At what price?…Either at the price of worshipping on his knees—or otherwise at the price of the identification of self with these higher forces, which results in megalomania.

Anonymous . Meditations on the Tarot (pp. 159-160). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

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In fact, an occultist (who is not a beginner) who has not attained this moral illness, or who has not at some time in the past undergone it, is rare. The tendency to megalomania shows up all over the place amongst occultists. Decades of personal relationships, as well as reading occult literature, have taught me this, There are many levels of this moral defect. It manifests at first as self-assurance and a certain informality with which one speaks of higher and sacred things. Then it expresses itself as “knowing-better” and “knowing-all”, i.e. as the attitude of a master towards everyone. Lastly, it manifests as implicit or even explicit infallibility.

Anonymous . Meditations on the Tarot (p. 161). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

 

@Leo Gura That is why one needs the "elephant man".

Edited January 25, 2020 by tsuki

[mandyjw]

40 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Cart’s before the horse. ?

That's hysterical. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

the higher forces which work beyond his consciousness

There is nothing beyond your consciousness since you are Infinite Consciousness.

6 hours ago, tsuki said:

@Leo Gura @Leo Gura Hey, love is blind. Stop judging me for my fetishes ?.

You are not being judged.

The point of this conversation is to help you realize you are God. Not something less.

Quote

How many miracles have you performed recently, Leo? Any walking on water yet?

I am an Infinite Miracle, and so are you.

Quote

Having a beloved one is not so bad, it keeps your ego in check and we both know that we need it.

No, it keeps the ego in place.

Don't become like Bobby, trapped in the duality of self/other.

[tsuki]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is nothing beyond your consciousness since you are Infinite Consciousness.

Oh, Leo!

Let's cut the bullshit. Are you directly conscious of my bowel movements right now?
Because I sure as shit am not conscious of yours. The light of awareness of the particular human I inhabit is limited.

Isn't your experience limited? Can you, as a human being, experience my thoughts as I experience them? I bet not. That is the condition of 99.999% humans as well, so why not be honest about that? God is unlimited, yes. He is the love that shines through my shit-stained egoic prism and this particular human lives through it, I get it. I have even experienced it many times before, but any "state" or experience ain't it so I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You are not being judged.

The point of this conversation is to help you realize you are God. Not something less.

It was a joke, my therapist advised me to practice humor.
Humans aren't less than God just because God provides for them.

[Stakres]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not a matter of believing me. It's a matter of doing the work.

@Leo Gura , what if I do the work and come to a different conclusion? What if I don't come to the conclusion that everything is God and Consciousness? I would have found my Absolute Truth which is not the same as yours. Is it still valid?

[Consilience]

21 minutes ago, Stakres said:

@Leo Gura , what if I do the work and come to a different conclusion? What if I don't come to the conclusion that everything is God and Consciousness? I would have found my Absolute Truth which is not the same as yours. Is it still valid?

The work isn’t about coming to conclusions. So any conclusion you think you come to is still not it. Leo’s communications are not the actuality of what Leo or this work is all about. Leo is attempting the impossible - to communicate the incommunicable. Everything Leo writes or talks about is falsehood, by default. However, it points towards something. Find that something. Maybe one day your language will be different than Leo’s, who knows. 

[Stakres]

@Consilience What is that "something" that you suggest I go out looking for?

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Stakres said:

@Leo Gura , what if I do the work and come to a different conclusion? What if I don't come to the conclusion that everything is God and Consciousness? I would have found my Absolute Truth which is not the same as yours. Is it still valid?

Then you must work harder until you realize you are God.

There is only one God, only one Absolute.

[Stakres]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Then you must work harder until you realize you are God.

What if I work hard and find another conclusion, which feels just as correct and right?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Stakres said:

What if I work hard and find another conclusion, which feels just as correct and right?

God/Absolute is a tautology. There is no alternative to the Absolute.

How your mind interprets the Absolute can vary, but the Absolute itself, Truth itself, Oneness, is the same for everyone. Hence it's called Absolute.

Absolute means it doesn't change under any circumstances.

[Stakres]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

How your mind interprets the Absolute can vary, but the Absolute itself, Truth itself, Oneness, is the same for everyone. Hence is Absolute.

Ok. So Truth is personal to everyone and it can be different for everyone?

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Stakres said:

Ok. So Truth is personal to everyone and it can be different for everyone?

No!

Truth = Absolute

Absolute Truth is singular and the same for everyone.

And here's the mindfuck: there is nothing but Absolute Truth.

There is no such thing as falsehood or untruth. Just different degrees of confusion about the Absolute.

The Absolute is so total that is includes within it all "falsehoods" because it is them.

If anything I said in this thread confuses you or leaves you skeptical, you need to study nondual literature (see my book list for ideas). You're lacking a basic conceptual understanding of nonduality.

[Stakres]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no such thing as falsehood or untruth. Just different degrees of confusion about the Absolute.

So there is only one correct interpretation of the Absolute? Ie when there is no confusion about the Absolute?

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Stakres said:

So there is only one correct interpretation of the Absolute? Ie when there is no confusion about the Absolute?

No, interpretations vary. Interpretations are not the Absolute itself. But also they are.

The paradoxes here are unavoidable because the Absolute cannot be captured in any finite symbolic order, since the Absolute is infinite.

When you are directly conscious of the Absolute, you become it. You are not interpreting it, thinking about it, or even looking at it. You and it become ONE. Then you can come back down into duality and do interpretations and analysis on it. But when you're doing that, you're again disconnected from it. Yet at the same time you cannot ever be disconnected from it because it is all things at all times.

[Stakres]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The paradoxes here are unavoidable because the Absolute cannot be captured in any finite symbolic order, since the Absolute is infinite.

Ok

 

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

When you are directly conscious of the Absolute, you become it. You are not interpreating it, thinking about it, or even looking at it. You and it become ONE.

What is after you experience it? What comes after? How do you continue after that experience?

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, Stakres said:

What is after you experience it? What comes after? How do you continue after that experience?

Awaken and find out.