Contemplating WHO am I vs. WHAT am I

[Flix]

Hi Leo & Community, 

One year ago I did an Enlightenment Intensive with Peter Ralston.

Beginners (like me) were supposed to use the question "who am I?", whereas the people who already "got who they are" used "what am I?".

Ever since I've been highly confused as to

1. How can you "get" who you are (a few guys in the workshop seemingly "got" it, while I did not). 
I think I have a good intellectual understanding of the concept no-self, and so far I thought the only thing you can "get" is that there's no one at home. But apparently those guys "got" themselves and the facilitators had some test question for them to verify it. What does this feel like and how can I unlock it?

2. How does the "answer" to the who question differ to the what question? My vague idea is that "who" still refers to a person while "what" refers rather to consciousness? (Facilitators there refused to answer this question as "it would not help you". But I feel my confusion about it doesn't help me either.) 

3. Would you advise to continue contemplating "who am I" for myself until I "get" it or rather use "what am I" despite not having "gotten" anything so far? 

Thanks
Best regards from Munich

Felix

Edited December 29, 2019 by Flix

[cetus]

 

[Flix]

5 hours ago, cetus56 said:

 

Thanks, I've watched them multiple times

[Leo Gura]

@Flix Yeah, that framing of it confused me for years. I really don't like how he frames it.

I prefer the questions:

• What am I?
• What is reality?
• What is consciousness?
• What is God?
• What is Love?
• Why is there something rather than nothing?
• Why is reality intelligent?
• Why is the point of life?

Etc.

I would skip the who question entirely. There are no whos.

[zeroISinfinity]

As strange as it sounds Absolutelly True. There is no single person. 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[Flix]

@Leo Gura Thanks Leo, that helps me a lot in practical terms regarding how to proceed.

(Yet I'd really like to know what it is that these people "get" when they "get who they are". Any ideas? In the workshop it was talked about as a rather small realization compared to the "what"-realization, but nonetheless a maybe necessary step towards it before you can "work with the what-question".) 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Flix

[Space]

@Flix This is something I struggled with for a long time too, because you're right, surely there is no 'who', or atleast who I am is just conceptual. Also, other teachers use WHO and WHAT interchangeably and in different ways which adds to the confusion. But clearly you can actually get WHO you are, and there is a distinct difference between getting WHO you are vs WHAT you are. 

I don't know WHO i am but this video actually created a big shift in my understanding of the question, particularly when Ralston says "do you think it's going to turn out to be anything but you". If you're thinking it's going to be something you've never experienced before or a new idea or something, then you're on the wrong track. WHO you are isn't anything other than you. Are you getting this? So in that sense it can't be a thought, or a memory, or anything imagined. WHO you are can't be found anywhere 'outside' of you, because IT IS you. 

youtube.com/watch?v=0Pc41z6gzcQ

When Ralston says you can 'get' who you are, he's talking about having an insight. It's a recognition of what's true. No one can really describe what it feels like or 'how to unlock it'. It doesn't work that way. It has to be you getting it.

Here's a response I got from Ralston a while back regarding the WHO question, which you might find helpful:

Alex, I sympathize with your challenges. The main thing is to have the intention to grasp the truth —no matter what it is. And remember, it IS you! Put your attention on what is most honestly you in your experience in this moment and set out to get you directly, without confusing you with anything you perceive, or think, or are attached to, etc. Yet also don't look elsewhere and don't overlook the obvious. As you contemplate, ask who is contemplating, or who is sitting or walking or thinking or feeling? No matter what you experience ask: who is experiencing it? This always puts you on track to grasp the source of whatever is experienced, which has to be you. As you intend to grasp you directly, be open. Don't expect or imagine what is true, be open to grasping it instead. And don't overlook YOU! It's that simple. I suggest you re-read the chapter on contemplation in NK, perhaps you will see something in a new light. Take each point and work with it, don't make it into a fantasy or aligned with your beliefs, but instead try to see clearly what is being said and turn that into an experience in your contemplations. Good luck with that. Peter

 

[Leo Gura]

That questions seems to lead to the I AM realization. Who you are is pure I AMness.

But going even deeper, who you are is God, the one and only being. Then the question becomes, what is God? What is the "substance" of God, so to speak?

[zeroISinfinity]

Pure Infinite Love

Edited December 30, 2019 by zeroISinfinity

[V-8]

On 12/29/2019 at 9:44 AM, Flix said:

Hi Leo & Community, 

One year ago I did an Enlightenment Intensive with Peter Ralston.

Beginners (like me) were supposed to use the question "who am I?", whereas the people who already "got who they are" used "what am I?".

Ever since I've been highly confused

Felix

 

Those questions are rabbit holes Felix,...no one will ever understand Who or What they are until they realize WHEN THEY ARE.    And that points to an Absolute Truth.

For another point of view that can be helpful in your discernment...

'Gnothi Seauton', as inscribed over the portico of the Temple at Delphi, means Gnow Thyself, not Know Thyself. In other words, those who say they know, most likely do not Gnow.

know\no, v. knew, known, know-ing, knows; OE gecnawan, be able to; akin to L. gnovi. 1. to perceive directly through the senses; comprehend through the intellect (the 6th sense); psyche. 2. to have fixed in the intellect or memory, something as true. 3. to be acquainted with or have a practical understanding of, as through sensory experience; know how to cook. 4. to comprehend noologically; through thought/intellect.

"The senses do not grasp reality in any way" Socrates

"The senses do not know, but man believes that his senses do know--and in that belief lies man's confusion" - Walter Russell   

 "99% of what you feel is actually based on what you're thinking" - Adyashanti

gnow\no, v. gnew, gnown, gnow-ing, gnows; from Gk gnosis, understanding through Heart-Mind. 1. to understand directly through metasensory awareness (beyond the 6 senses); comprehend through the heart of essence or thymos. 2. to experience, without media-tion, something as true. 3. to be acquainted with or have gnostic understanding of, as through metasensory experience; to gnow love. 4. to comprehend ontosophically; through prajna/gnosis.

 

At some point about two thousand years ago, humanity devolved from Thymos thinkers to Psyche thinkers.  In ancient cultures (Egyptian, Mayan, Naga, etc.) the Heart center (thymus) was cherished, and the brain discarded.   In today's culture the opposite is dominant,...and the thymus gland begins to atrophy right after birth.  In ancient Greece it was written that some had a thymus gland as large as a grapefruit,...today, it's mostly the size of a shriveled up pea.   Go Figure!
 

There are Two Hearts.  The heart that gets heavy with pain is the heart pump,...which has many oxytocin receptors that stimulate pain or joy from chemical releases originating in the brain.

The Heart Center, one's Heart chakra, is associated with the thymus gland (not the heart pump).   The Heart Center, the Higher Heart, has been called the Higher Mind or Heart Mind; however, for most in our current culture of Mental Inertia, the butterfly shaped thymus has atrophied, as I mentioned, to the size of a pea. 

Here's a visual to ponder,....identify the two  secondary chakras located near the shoulder blades, and imagine a pair of wings extending from the thymus (your Heart Center) through those shoulder blade chakras.  

We have the potential to unfurl astral wings from the Anahata Chakra, just as the ancients valued glyphs of a heart shape with wings,...wings like Isis, and her Sky Dancing Mother.   This may sound silly,...but will help you integrate with the Feminine of Duality,...which is not a gender of Form, but the Wave of a Particle.  

[ardacigin]

Rather than the phrasing, try to understand how the consciousness is supposed to change with this sort of question.

This is a challenging practice even for adept meditators. If it makes no change in your consciousness, come back to it later and develop other skills for now.

 

[V-8]

13 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

Rather than the phrasing, try to understand how the consciousness is supposed to change with this sort of question.

This is a challenging practice even for adept meditators. If it makes no change in your consciousness, come back to it later and develop other skills for now.

 

Two points of critique:

First,.."your consciousness?"   If one inquires deeply enough there is a reveal that there is no "your consciousness."  There is consciousness,...and one's only relationship to that is your own level of Conscious Awareness,...the better you are at receiving, like a radio and its ability with signal strength, the more Conscious Awareness one has.

 

Second,...which isn't very popular on this form,...is that meditators will have a VERY difficult time understanding anything about "consciousness."  For example:

"Do you think you can clear your mind by sitting constantly in silent meditation? This makes your mind narrow, not clear."  Lao-Tzu  Huahujing

“If your purpose is to medicate dukkha,...then meditate. If your wish is bodhi,...practice absolute bodhicitta.”  a Chan  saying.

Hui Neng said that meditation is unnecessary, and warned that such practice can easily become a narcotic.   

"After Buddha's passing away, monks and nuns only emphasized meditation; there was no interest in studying the teachings."  Anam Thubten

“Many people like meditation. But it is not very constructive or useful. It does not decrease our negative mindsets of anger, attachments, etc. It does not increase our qualities of kindness, truthfulness and wisdom. So, we might be able to sit still single-pointedly for four or five hours, but what’s the point? It’s like a pigeon!”    Khadro-la

"Meditation, yoga, or one of the many so-called spiritual activities has little to do with liberation from delusion, and everything do to with their desperation to escape busy, unhappy lives, and heartfelt longing for a healthy, stress-free, happy life"  Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche

"Free yourself from meditation, practice non-meditation" - Kyergangpa Chökyi Senge

"The practice of meditation is represented by the three monkeys, who cover their eyes, ears and mouths so as to avoid the phenomenal world. The practice of non-meditation is ceasing to be the see-er, hearer or speaker while eyes, ears and mouths are fulfilling their function in daily life."   - Wei Wu Wei  

"in my regard there is no view on which to meditate" - Kunje Gyalpo

 

And yes,...I understand that meditators, especially "adept meditators" who have invested years with meditation don't want to hear that everything they believe to be meaningful is actually meaningless,...but just think of all those tethered to paradigms like theism,...emancipation from beliefs often requires an emotional evaluation.

 

[Flix]

@Space @Leo Gura Thanks, that's helpful!

[archi]

On 12/29/2019 at 5:44 PM, Flix said:

1. What does this feel like and how can I unlock it?

3. Would you advise to continue contemplating "who am I" for myself until I "get" it or rather use "what am I" despite not having "gotten" anything so far? 

Interesting I was wondering whether it is worthwhile to go for enlightenment intensive.

1.  Sometimes I use: Who is looking through the eyes?

3. No, no need to marry one question .

[archi]

On 12/30/2019 at 1:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

• Why is the point of life?

Why?! 

Or rather "Is there point of life?"  and then potentially Why?

[V-8]

4 hours ago, archi said:

Why?! 

Or rather "Is there point of life?"  and then potentially Why?

Yes,...there is a point to life,...and it's the same point for everyone,...of course ego will not except that.   I can explain the point of life, but why?  Some have explained it before, no different than others, yet adjusted for the language of that time,... but few have welcomed it.

"Contradictions in perspective among those Seeing the profound do not occur" – Taranatha.

Your question, "Is there point of life?"  indicates that you're unaware of a single absolute truth,...so that could be your starting point if the answer to your question is serious.  Most settle for making up a story so that it's more palatable for one's beliefs,...usually something "divine" fills in their blank,...and there is a most profound reason why some 95% of humanity believe in personal theistic story.  

“Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.”  Ramana Maharshi

"If you want to awaken all of humanity, then awaken all of your self."  Lao Tzu, Huahujing  

The process to awakening is about uncovering truth,....not Relative Truth, which arises from the 6 senses,...but Absolute Truth,...and the way to uncover truth is letting go of all that is false so you can recognize what's left.

"The real seeker of truth never seeks truth. On the contrary, she tries to clean herself of all that is untrue, inauthentic, insincere."  Chandra Mohan Jain

And keep in mind,..."Two truths cannot contradict one another”  - Galileo Galilei

If you ever hear someone say, "lets agree to disagree,"...they have no interest in truth.  

Now,...for the real scary part,...if you honestly desire to uncover truth,...you must let go of ALL your "personal truth."   Personal truths are always lies.  

When you except that,...next step could be an investigation about why everything you see, taste, smell, touch, hear, and think is a lie.

“All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once.” René Descartes

"Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth"  Lao-tzu

"The senses do not grasp reality in any way" Socrates

"Those who are greatly deluded about enlightenment are sentient beings." Dōgen

Any teacher who does not expound on the nature of sentience has no interest in truth,...nor Spirituality.  

Bodhisattva's take a vow to help liberate sentient beings from their sentience for a reason.  

[Aaron p]

@Flix the most important part is staying empty and letting your intuition guide you and move you. There comes a point where you have to let go of finding it so that it can find you 

[Stakres]

The answer to "Who am I?" is simple and obvious. Don't let anyone anyone delude you. Find your own truth.

Look into biology, evolution, human primates.