Revolutionary Think

Yang vs. Sanders

131 posts in this topic

Bernie Sanders has flip-flopped it seems about the idea of a universal basic income, the idea that automation will soon replace so many jobs that one solution is to give all adult citizens something like $1,000 or $1,200 per month unconditionally without strings attached. I believe that it may be too early for a UBI but already within a decade or so it might be one solution. Here is one of Bernie's more recent answers:

"Audience member: “I know you’ve expressed support for universal basic income in the past in your interviews, but there’s this guy Andrew Yang who wants to give everybody a thousand bucks a month with a VAT tax, and I think to win the Democratic primary, you’ve gotta do that.”

Bernie Sanders: Nah. I’ve got a better idea.

Audience member: You won’t do it?

Bernie Sanders: Nope. Sorry you came all the way from Alabama. Here’s a better idea. I understand that idea. I have a better idea, and the better idea I think is that in a nation in which there is so much work to be done, just think about it. You’ve got an infrastructure which is crumbling. We can put millions of people to work doing that. Transforming our energy system in terms of weatherizing homes all over this country, building a more efficient transportation system. Putting more money into wind and solar and other sustainable technologies. We can create millions of jobs doing that. Think about daycare. You want a world class child care center? You need well-educated, well-trained, well-paid child care workers. We need many of them. We need more doctors in rural areas and in urban areas. We need more nurses. We have a dental crisis all over this country. We need to train dentists and get them out there. We need more social workers. You want to reform our criminal justice system? You’re going to need people to start working with prisoners. You want kids not dropping out of high school? You’re going to need mentors working with them.

There is an enormous amount of work to be done and what we believe in is guaranteeing a job in this country to anybody who is prepared to work. I think that’s the better approach." - https://medium.com/basic-income/on-the-record-bernie-sanders-on-basic-income-de9162fb3b5c

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@Leo Gura This is why I think a Universal Basic Income is a much better idea than a raise of $15 an hour. When Sanders helped these employees get to $15 an hour their hours were cut 

 

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mhhh, i also like the idea of basic income, but i live in a country that has social wellfare, and at least on paper the ambition to develop into a more green economy, and we have free universities. i wonder what it would do in the us without any social and green development plans. maybe you just wait for four years or eight and then it might be the right plan. it won`t really be helpful in an economy with many jobless people. if other countries develop more green technology and the us stands behind, you can`t say that the us is technologically progressive anymore. basic income only makes sense if enough people have work and are integrated in a progressive society.

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@Revolutionary Think yes in theory, but think about the people who are jobless and also what jobs will it create? would it create progressive jobs? what about the bubbles that it might create? i`m completely with you that it would be fair and that it can be helpfull to have a basic income, but i also see why bernie sanders approach will bring the country further towards the twentyfirst century in a technological sense. energy transition doesn`t work without state support. (i`m from germany)

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Will a UBI create jobs? I thought it was about managing an increase of automation and loss of jobs. And also, with over half of the population without jobs, without a UBI I suspect that the economy will start spiral downwards making the whole market dwindle and thereby threaten the few jobs that are left.

Then what about millionaires and people earning a lot of money? The answer is that the UBI will just be a tiny addition to their income and be irrelevant to them basically. On the other hand, for a person with a low income the UBI will make a huge difference because he or she will be able to keep BOTH the UBI and the salary from the job. Middle income people will be able to use the UBI for extra spending but it will be insufficient for replacing their salaries, so they need to keep their jobs or radically downsize their living costs.

Ray Kurzweil said that price/performance of products and services will improve exponentially, even for physical products when they become information technology through things like 3D printing and nanotech. So with a constant UBI (not counting inflation), the UBI will be able to pay for more and more products and services.

Edited by Anderz

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The thing is, there's much more to reforming government than a single proposal like UBI.

UBI vs jobs guarantee is like 7th on the list of important issues.

Be careful about turning into a single-issue voter. A politician must considered holistically, not on the basis of one cool proposal.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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You're right Leo I agree. Yang has over 100 policy proposals that are all relevant to the 21st century. I doubt that Sanders tackles as many issues that Yang does. Also Yang is running on Sanders legacy. Yang actually voted for Sanders when Sanders was running. The problem I see is that free college and $15 minimum wage does nothing to address people not being able to actualize themselves because when a job is out of reach or you have a job you hate and it only give the bear minimum it's really hard to spend time on thinking of anything other than basic survival needs. https://www.yang2020.com/policies/  

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@Revolutionary Think i`m not sure about the candidates, they both are probably good candidates. regarding basic income and such, i hope europe was open enough to consider it more, i would love that if the us would go ahead and show how that might work. although, maybe it would be interesting to start in a single state first, before really doing it on the collective level, believe me, that would bring some movement into some states. i think like that: why just having one candidate while you can have two. bernie sanders will probably not try it a third time, last chance! yang could run a next time and then really run on sanders legacy. 

don`t get me wrong that`s not the reason why a politician should be the main candidate - it`s more about what the politician is really able to do but if you choose between two if you could have both, which one would you choose?

exactly that`s how greedy it can get.

Edited by remember

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Sanders is the more progressive candidate with the most serious proposals that challenge the status quo.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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I think flip-flopping about issues is fine, but I have a suspicion that Bernie Sanders is like a leftist version of Ron Paul, put there by the establishment as gatekeepers. They say things that sound good to capture the minds of certain categories of voters, while in reality it's meant to produce nothing! By their fruits you shall know them.

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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Sanders is the more progressive candidate with the most serious proposals that challenge the status quo.

100 %

Started off weighing out Yang and Sanders as close, I love Yang, Bernie is what we need to lay the foundation of this country :)

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2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Sanders is the more progressive candidate with the most serious proposals that challenge the status quo.

Don't you think Bernie will only further the divide currently present in the US? Yang is specifically so appealing because he is so outside the box that he could actually manage to reunite the division currently taking place atleast to some extent.

Just because Bernie's ideas are more progressive does not mean that the country will actually progress in case of his presidency. Infact, I would be concerned that the very radical nature of his proposals (atleast in the perspective of the US) will lead to an eventual regression due to backlash or simple failure of implementation.

 

Also, Yang is not a single issue candidate.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/

In my view the most important policy he is proposing are the democracy dollars, it might do wonders to fight against the corruption taking place in US politics. I think the Human Centered Capitalism idea he is specifically proposing, with systemic solutions like incentive structure changes, is a much more appealling transition into eventual socialistic societies than what the current paradigm is limited to.

 

Just ask yourself what will happen if Bernie fails his presidency, what that will mean for the progress of the US and conversely mankind.

Edited by Scholar

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We have had decades of inaction.

Sanders is just the kick in the ass we need. Of course he won't be able to pass everything he wants. But he will lead a movement that will shift the overtone window seriously left, which is what we have been lacking for 50 years.

Sanders could be the next FDR. If only he was younger.

Working class people, even Republicans will like Bernie as he pushes against elites.

The ones who hate Bernie are mostly elites.

A working class person is not going to hate Bernie.

FDR was the most popular president of all time. But the elites hated him. I predict a similar sitation if Bernie wins.

Of course hardcore conservatives will demonize him. But they demonized Obama, so there is no pleasing them.

Fox News will demonize no matter who the Democratic president is.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

younger.

How do you think we will get all this money? Does money matter at all?

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