why powerposition makes people regress back in spiral dynamics

[remember]

it`s a phenomenon we can see in a lot of casestudies especially in business. the "theranos" blogpost on leo`s blog is a very good example to have a taste on that. it`s a complete cascade of downfalls. and also shows how powerfull spiral dynamics can get to unravel devilish and criminal activities connected to powerposition. what we see as regressing back is always regress into the toxicity of that stage still holding a powerposition, not into the healthy aspects that would be learning process without powerposition.

storyline:

a yellow to turquoise thinker has an idea to help the world with a product that should simplify medical processes, the aim is very selfless and overall good and lovable in the classical sense. first fall: she starts a yellow business that aims to reach as many people as possible, liberal profit oriented, though. second fall: she falls from yellow right into orange because it get`s more important to maintain the idea/money (can`t  say which one of it it is, as i don`t believe she was heartless) and then falls right into blue by holding everything together through the pyramid structure of the business which was probably even red.

so what`s the problem here? does anybody see this? what happened to turquoise, where is green? why does powerposition lead to regress?

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by remember

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, remember said:

it`s a phenomenon we can see in a lot of casestudies especially in business. the "theranos" blogpost on leo`s blog is a very good example to have a taste on that. it`s a complete cascade of downfalls. and also shows how powerfull spiral dynamics can get to unravel devilish and criminal activities connected to powerposition. what we see as regressing back is always regress into the toxicity of that stage still holding a powerposition, not into the healthy aspects that would be learning process without powerposition.

storyline:

a yellow to turquoise thinker has an idea to help the world with a product that should simplify medical processes, the aim is very selfless and overall good and lovable in the classical sense. first fall: she starts a yellow business that aims to reach as many people as possible, liberal profit oriented, though. second fall: she falls from yellow right into orange because it get`s more important to maintain the idea/money (can`t  say which one of it it is, as i don`t believe she was heartless) and then falls right into blue by holding everything together through the pyramid structure of the business which was probably even red.

so what`s the problem here? does anybody see this? what happened to turquoise, where is green? why does powerposition lead to regress?

 

I wouldn't say this person is yellow at all, they went into this business because they wanted to become a billionaire. This is pure stage Orange.

[remember]

23 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I wouldn't say this person is yellow at all, they went into this business because they wanted to become a billionaire. This is pure stage Orange.

yep, agree with you!

but try to see it in a more differenciated way - there are cascades of colours in every person. development strings like spirituality, business, an idea, dreams, actions - they all can be differently developed. that makes it so interesting, there can be people who are personally, spiritually in turquoise leading a red or purple business...she, herself, her drive was orange, but the image of her was in yellow and she behaved like a king, what`s red. the problem was she was not a wise king and she was massively missing out at green...

not that green can not regress into orange aswell. there are probably some examples where activists in powerposition regressed into orange aswell.

it`s very interesting try to see the structures of the construct, it`s a case study. the structure of the business steps into the position of the personal relationships and natural hirarchies.

Edited September 7, 2019 by remember

[Apparition of Jack]

@remember If they're leading a stage red or purple business, they are not turquoise.

You have to be careful with your attachment to aesthetics/language here. Just because a company or person uses Yellow or Turquoise-sounding language in a product, doesn't mean they actually have any idea what those concepts they're talking about refer to. Odds are, if they're a greedy stage Orange business person, their only understanding of spirituality is how it'll help them make more money.

[Leo Gura]

Of course many business people are seduced by Silicon Valley and Wall Street culture.

The center of gravity of the culture you hang out in will either pull you up or drag you down, depending on how high your aim is.

[tenta]

Sometimes it appears that way, but in reality the person was wanting power in the first place

[remember]

9 minutes ago, tenta said:

Sometimes it appears that way, but in reality the person was wanting power in the first place

i would not speciffically be so supersticious about that. the way she tried to save the idea by trying to evolve the technology shows that it was not only about money, but a lack of knowledge to do it differently. i mean the idea itself was not a bad one but the way she approched it without testing it first if it could really work that way was naive and halfbaked. she did never arrive in a beta phase of testing but went full monty, in that it was power driven even though the product idea could have been a real innovation. i really think some people want to have a positive influence on society but then they approch it the wrong way, because they never learned it differently. she didn`t make it because exactly her green was not evolved enough to run a healthy business.

[remember]

@Apparition of Jack mhh yes - we are talking about image/imagination of reality and what`s really the case, both of them are projected outward. an idea can spring from a little bit of turquoise even if the turquoise might be not fully developed. it can be a little shimmer of an idea of what it would be like, but without the right development in all other colours it wouldn`t work out as the decisions that are made are coming from the stage the person is at. it`s a theory/assessment tool of course i`ve tested this method coming into beta phase . wanna buy?

what if it`s not about how they make more money, nor power but how they make more ego.

Edited September 7, 2019 by remember

[Key Elements]

Before these investors of big companies blindly trusted her, did they not turn to their IP lawyers or private investigators and real doctors to verify her startup, theranos? She dropped out of Stanford University? Was she studying medicine? She's not even a doctor.

[remember]

3 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Before these investors of big companies blindly trusted her, did they not turn to their IP lawyers or private investigators and real doctors to verify her startup, theranos? She dropped out of Stanford University? Was she studying medicine? She's not even a doctor.

it`s not the problem as it could also be a design product...and there it`s only about technique, there are a lot of designers who are creating very good medical products together with doctors, they also work constantly on making them better even though the product is already sold. i think a medical drop out can still have really good ideas, you don`t know why she dropped out, maybe it was the money, maybe she realized she wanted to change something on a big scale rather than always being on a man to man show. it`s complicated, the dropping out might not be the problem the bad research on all levels before release though is. and i can imagine that investors don`t want to invest in longtime research without earning directley, thats why some really good innovative ideas might also rott away somewhere. a lot of investors invest in money not in ideas. because it could be that after the research the product dies and they are going for maximisation, cause who wants to loose?

of course medical products should be tested and approved, maybe by a third party but controlling them too much will also maybe slow down innovation. as long as the product was medically not dangerous...it was only a scham, no medical disaster, with people dying.

in some sense she didn`t get the responsibility shift from a doctor to a designer, neither being a doctor nor a designer trying to be all of it all by herself without the feedback loop a team could have given her. that`s the structural problem.

Edited September 8, 2019 by remember

[Key Elements]

@remember wow...all that you've said could be correct. I'm trying to put myself in her shoes. I don't know what she was doing for a living while she was working with investors. But, it seemed like none of them realized that it's going to take too much time and energy in the end to make such a product--it wasn't worth it. Both her and her partner even got sued with prison sentences? That's shocking. To me, something seems missing. Did she go to an IP lawyer before the investors? To me, it seems like she was smart enough to do this. However, had she worked as a doctor or some medical profession, she could have realized that this product wasn't worth it, and developed some other medical product. If she had doctors on her team, they did not realize? No realization of organic growth? All of them just jumped right in expecting growth and exit?

[Key Elements]

10 hours ago, remember said:

 there are a lot of designers who are creating very good medical products together with doctors. i think a medical drop out can still have really good ideas

Yes, I understand. However, without medical knowledge or with very little medical knowledge or practice, you may not see the big picture of what's going on when your team of doctors and medical designers work together. The final product put on the market may not be what anyone wants.

[remember]

1 hour ago, Key Elements said:

Yes, I understand. However, without medical knowledge or with very little medical knowledge or practice, you may not see the big picture of what's going on when your team of doctors and medical designers work together. The final product put on the market may not be what anyone wants.

well there are different approaches to medicine and design, there are some with and some without a code of conduct. i`d always check on that first it doesn`t even matter if you get the best of the best in their profession technically, but at least it wont be a desaster. a designer can be like a doctor in that sense, some try to make concious stuff that really works and others don`t and only scratch the surface.

i also get where she might really have been ignorant, as of course naivety is not an excuse for being resilient against better knowledge. could also be another reason, narcisists are usually more resilient agains influence than others, might be she had to big of a narcisistic support or it was the position that projected that. but in general a powerposition can trigger that, a narcisist will take the position to support the ego`s claims on the position as the sole ruler more than a healthy ego.

i have met some narcisists so well it`s difficult to work with them. but they can show you exactly how the system of power works as you can`t work around them, if you do their ego will do anything to lower you in status while still keeping you under controll, to keep powerposition by all means. it`s differnt than a more healthy ego but of course healthy egos work kind of similar, that`s why some people confuse strong egos for narcisists. just a longterm experience, not a medical diagnosis. don`t forget the dark triad never sleeps, but some of them cut themselves of from the source so completely that they fall the way they should. even though a lot of them don`t. it`s usually the support system that keeps them alive, therefore, position without feedback loop. or a position where everyone just says: you are doing so great while it is not the case.

Edited September 8, 2019 by remember

[Key Elements]

@remember in other words, you have to know who you're working with before you sign that contract of due diligence. Make sure you're completely clear as to what your due diligence is about before you sign it. Make sure you talk to your IP lawyer and other startups who have received fundings. Get to know them on a personal level first and know their ethics/code of conduct. Don't just go and pitch and trust any funding that comes your way.

[remember]

@Key Elements yeah. tell that to a person in the middle of awakening.

it`s all love transaction.

thank you!

it wasn`t really about that but it`s a really good advice - can see where it`s coming from.

Edited September 8, 2019 by remember

[Key Elements]

@remember networking is a people skill, not just for fundings. The problem with stage orange networking in a stage orange society is that they don't go deep within enough, and it's too individualistic. They only had an achievist mentality--to get as much fundings and try to go beyond the fundings at whatever the cost. It never works this way. I thought the dot.com era in the Silicon Valley taught everyone a lesson. Looks like--no, not everyone. To me, the biggest networking flaw/lesson that I've ever seen was with the Larry Nassar case. People in power knew, but no one did anything about it. So, Nassar became a big hype for decades, and in the end, it was the biggest mess and criminal case.

[Key Elements]

6 hours ago, remember said:

@Key Elements 

it wasn`t really about that but it`s a really good advice - can see where it`s coming from.

A lot of us live in a stage orange society and have to learn how to deal with it.

Become a leader (founder) of a company and use that as a vehicle to drive society up to the next level (in Spiral Dynamics).

"Be the change." -Gandhi

[remember]

8 hours ago, Key Elements said:

@remember networking is a people skill, not just for fundings. The problem with stage orange networking in a stage orange society is that they don't go deep within enough, and it's too individualistic. They only had an achievist mentality--to get as much fundings and try to go beyond the fundings at whatever the cost. It never works this way. I thought the dot.com era in the Silicon Valley taught everyone a lesson. Looks like--no, not everyone. To me, the biggest networking flaw/lesson that I've ever seen was with the Larry Nassar case. People in power knew, but no one did anything about it. So, Nassar became a big hype for decades, and in the end, it was the biggest mess and criminal case.

very interesting, i was not so close to that case as it`s in the us, there are a lot of cases like that, they pop up once in a while and i`m always speechless how the system protects these cases. with the dark triade people it`s clear, they probably want this power and then they work themselfs towards the position where their ego gets what it craves for most.

with other cases where it`s because people don`t fill their position and do harm because they are not qualified enough, it`s a different story. sometimes it might be that they didn`t have to work themselves up to the position, they just drop in there from college without developing skills. or because dady put them there (what would be purple, they will go through red to stabilize the position, very toxic).

that`s what i now call blue hirarchical structures, especially when they are central organised with strict hirarchical authority structures. what happens toxically between the lines is red in the most cases supported by a blue system, while the people react orange, only thinking about themselfs. the community is like the structure then blue, what makes orange shut up instead of pointing towards the errors in the system. the only ones who go against that are green or higher up stages. there are no orange systems as orange is ego, so the next step would be a green system, what is too anarchic to work out. every individual in the system would need to be green or turquoise for a green system to work (well they exist but not in mixed forms).

the problem is that blue makes a lot of people fall back into orange, especially  even green people who used to build their relationships on green get sometimes comfy in it, that would be orange/green (selfish green, military or muddy green) they even would if the system was yellow structured because they can`t cope with managing their ego yet to stabilize a system for the communities sake as they confuse yellow for blue - because green transcends orange and can accept blue in a healthy way, only when they are already one step in yellow (mixture of blue and yellow, accepting yellow structure self responsible not egoic)

spiral dynamics matrix.

Edited September 9, 2019 by remember

[Aeris]

On 07/09/2019 at 2:55 PM, Apparition of Jack said:

@remember If they're leading a stage red or purple business, they are not turquoise.

You have to be careful with your attachment to aesthetics/language here. Just because a company or person uses Yellow or Turquoise-sounding language in a product, doesn't mean they actually have any idea what those concepts they're talking about refer to. Odds are, if they're a greedy stage Orange business person, their only understanding of spirituality is how it'll help them make more money.

Wrong because It's an harmonic in the brain. 

Like a chord of color. ( Pushing 3 )

I can lead a red business at coral if the odds pushed me to do it.

You can't be efficient green if you deluded about stage orange progress to self mastery.

If the entire society is red/orange.

The whole paradox' of life is killing manipulating and exploiting for a greater cause than yourself.

Basicly all so call'd turquoise teacher are just brainwashing manipulating people.

But being modifyed isn't 'bad'.

That's just my interprétation. But everything is an interprétation

[tenta]

On 9/7/2019 at 6:21 PM, remember said:

i would not speciffically be so supersticious about that. the way she tried to save the idea by trying to evolve the technology shows that it was not only about money, but a lack of knowledge to do it differently. i mean the idea itself was not a bad one but the way she approched it without testing it first if it could really work that way was naive and halfbaked. she did never arrive in a beta phase of testing but went full monty, in that it was power driven even though the product idea could have been a real innovation. i really think some people want to have a positive influence on society but then they approch it the wrong way, because they never learned it differently. she didn`t make it because exactly her green was not evolved enough to run a healthy business.

 

I was saying in general, a power position could bring out true colors, or make someone feel less responsible for their actions, but if you are solidly in a stage you will not regress due to getting a power position