If Muhammad was enlightened then why is Islam dogmatic?

[Truth Addict]

20 minutes ago, tsuki said:

I would say that samadhi is a transfiguration of the mind where it loses its ability to determine itself.
Permanent enlightenment = permanent samadhi? That would seem to bridge our understanding.

Only if there was a mind to being with. (don't kill me yet, I was just kidding lol ?).

Yes, I agree ??

[Angelite]

5 hours ago, remember said:

exactly it`s your definition - you are interpreting... who makes the difference you or the deity?

 

6 hours ago, Angelite said:

(Not a muslim means not believing in a God higher than you. And not accepting the previous prophets. Maybe you are that. Idk. It's my definition)

The definition of "My" here is different than what you have in your mind...

It has it's chains that goes back to the prophet which inevitably connected to God...

Actually the chains is countless. But I'll give you the simplest one.  

....and I(Muhammad) am commanded to be of those who bow in Islam to Allah's Will. [27:91]

In arabic it's direct translation is Muslimeen. 

So the definition of "Muslim" is those who submit themselves to Allah's Will. But to do that you'd have to believe in the prophets. It's all interconnected. The Quran itself was given through Muhammad. 

...

The same thing with everything i've ever said. It has it's roots which i'd rather not  e x p l a i n .. ~~

So it's my definition. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Angelite

[zeroISinfinity]

@Truth Addict Haha. You sneaky snake. ❤️

@Angelite Want to really worship Allah. Then Love Everything around You. That's True worship. 

You are Just playing games and You are really Just way to good at them. You Just do not want to see it. 

You crave for Allah but That which craves for Allah gets obliterated in Allah PRESENT. 

 

[Angelite]

@zeroISinfinity 

Do what Allah love. Not doing what Allah hate. Follow Allah's Will. 

That's how you love Allah. 

Loving His creations is included in the first. But there's more~

...

Do I love everything? Hmm...

Only GOD knows what is in every heart?

You don't~

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Angelite

[Angelite]

11 hours ago, Aakash said:

@Angelite  this is delusion. There is no difference between relative and absolute 

there is no difference between me and god. I am god. I am Allah but i must consciously die to become my true self. To become the true self of all of us 

Aakash...do you see everything as a manifestation of God? 

When you say I am God..

 

[zeroISinfinity]

29 minutes ago, Angelite said:

@zeroISinfinity 

Do what Allah love. Not doing what Allah hate. Follow Allah's Will. 

That's how you love Allah. 

Loving His creations is included in the first. But there's more~

...

Do I love everything? Hmm...

Only GOD knows what is in every heart?

You don't~

 

Of course I do. ❤️? Pretty much a saint at this point(dishonest, time to return). Oh Yes I do know Allah so so well. 

Allah is HER creations. This is HER. She Just have to recognize HERSELF. 

What If every book You think you've read was You this entire time. What If Allah is Just remembering What SHE IS (This). 

Allah is all powerfull it Can trick itself into thinking She is a person. Let That sink in. 

 

[Angelite]

@zeroISinfinity you're bluffing. 

What you realize is your own soul. When you are(created from) nothing. The one who created that is Allah. 

The One who knows what is in every heart. You don't. 

You are describing a "soul" , that's why it didn't know what is in every heart.

 

...

 

[zeroISinfinity]

@Angelite What You think That nothing is? 

What Can be in every heart? But Love?! 

Goodness of Allah is such That it gave YOU Allahness. 

I know What I did. 

You are Allah. Greatest gift Allah already gave You. PRESENT OF ALLAH. 

You are immortal, all powerfull soul, all Loving, infinite Selfless Creator etc. You are it. 

[lmfao]

@Leo Gura very true. I suppose the culture of that time is something I can't imagine being born in. 

@Angelite

All your dogmatic beliefs about the prophets, the quran and about God are bullshit. There is metaphorical truth in Islam but you've fallen into a trap. You seem to have this belief that some separate entity from you called Allah created everything, and will send people's souls in the afterlife to heaven or hell based on some arbitrary standard of morality. 

 

 

 

[Truth Addict]

18 minutes ago, lmfao said:

@Leo Gura 

@Angelite

All your dogmatic beliefs about the prophets, the quran and about God are bullshit. There is metaphorical truth in Islam but you've fallen into a trap. You seem to have this belief that some separate entity from you called Allah created everything, and will send people's souls in the afterlife to heaven or hell based on some arbitrary standard of morality. 

You are describing your current position. You are the deluded one here.

All of your non-dogmatic beliefs are bullshit.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Truth Addict

[lmfao]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

You are describing your current position. You are the deluded one here.

All of your non-dogmatic beliefs are bullshit.

Not sure what my position other than fundamentalist religion being bullshit is being described here. 

 

[Truth Addict]

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

fundamentalist religion being bullshit.

How do you know?

[MuddyBoots]

Fundamentalist religions have fixed belief systems which you just learn and then repeat. You don't find out the truth for yourself. One mistake which Islam makes is that there's a defined list of prophets which end with Mohammed. No changes to the scriptures allowed, so they become fossilised. Religion is really about training us all to become prophets, communing with God.

[Truth Addict]

46 minutes ago, MuddyBoots said:

Fundamentalist religions have fixed belief systems which you just learn and then repeat. You don't find out the truth for yourself.

How do you know that that's not how you find the truth?

See? You're already assuming that you know how to find the truth. But do you actually know?

Your assumption that your path towards truth being better than fundamentalist religion's path, is just a sneaky part your belief system.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Truth Addict]

@tsuki

I've been thinking.

And I figured, open-mindedness doesn't have anything to do with causing enlightenment or its permanence. It rather affects the depth of it when it occurs.

What are your thoughts on this?

[tsuki]

@Truth Addict Enlightenment is the "Aha!". The depth of it is bounded by open-mindedness. Samadhi is resting in open-mindedness.

Enlightenment itself is grace. It is not caused, but effort is an invitation.

Edited September 4, 2019 by tsuki

[MuddyBoots]

@Truth Addict    Because I tried it. Well alright, maybe the Church of England is on the liberal end of fundamentalist, but trying to believe in creeds, going to church services listening to scriptures and liturgy, singing Victorian hymns, praying to God 'out there'. Then wondering why I didn't have any awareness of God, 'he' never made an appearance. I wasn't supposed to try experimenting with other unauthorised awareness techniques else the religious hierarchy would find out and give me grief.

Granted that fundamentalism is a relativistic state of mind - if a literal approach to scripture works for some people then fine. Just that it didn't work for me and it was inflexible, so the only option was to leave and try something else - Transcendental Meditation was my first attempt. The point is, I didn't begin to find truth till I took the authority and responsibility back on myself. My path may not be perfect but it's better for me than the one I was born into.  I've absolutely no idea what path is better for anyone else and I wouldn't dream of trying to give them anything other than suggestions to think about. Fundamentalism, on the other hand, says our way is the only true way, else  you go to hell / samsara / etc. Open-mindedness says that there can be different paths for different people.  

PS I keep changing my profile picture, struggling to find one I like!

[Truth Addict]

@MuddyBoots

I think the thing is that fundamentalist religion gives us the answers. The problem is that we don't understand them, probably because they don't resonate with our standards for judging truth and distinguishing it from falsehood. But are our standards (in your case, liberal and scientific) true measures? Or are they just some invented intellectual systems to process reality in certain specific ways (in your case, humanitarian materialistic way)?

Also, we need to make a clear distinction between a mystical experience and God-realization. Both of which are not the truth, still.

11 hours ago, MuddyBoots said:

@Truth Addict I didn't begin to find truth till I took the authority and responsibility back on myself.

Maybe it's just wording, but it's not possible to find truth. Because how to find that which has never been lost?

As for the avatar, try picking a shiny one instead. Shiny objects usually seem more likeable. Although I like this one.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Truth Addict

[MuddyBoots]

@Truth Addict

"I think the thing is that fundamentalist religion gives us the answers. The problem is that we don't understand them, probably because they don't resonate with our standards for judging truth and distinguishing it from falsehood."

For sure fundamentalist literal religion gives us lots of answers, mostly justified from quoting scripture. So you need to have faith in the scriptures for the whole thing to hang together.  I do understand some of their answers, but only after I have lived through an experience or other which demonstrates it in my reality. In any case I'm in danger of over-generalising here; fundamentalism is a mixed bag so I'll leave it at that.

"But are our standards (in your case, liberal and scientific) true measures? Or are they just some invented intellectual systems to process reality in certain specific ways (in your case, humanitarian materialistic way)?"

You're caricaturing me a bit here; although I respect the values of liberalism, science and humanitarianism  those aren't my only standards of measurement or judgement; eg intuition, conscience are just as important.  I don't know what you mean by materialistic so I'll let that pass. I was born into a religious culture which didn't work for me spiritually (by my intuition), and was too inflexible to accommodate adjustments, but luckily I had the freedom to explore others without punishment.  Not everyone has that luxury so I'm grateful for that liberalism.  Anyway, yes of course liberalism and science are invented systems, all human systems are invented or created, and give their own points of view.

"Also, we need to make a clear distinction between a mystical experience and God-realization. Both of which are not the truth, still. "

Intriguing, would you elaborate on the distinction please?  I suppose not all mystics are theists, and I'm not a theist so don't expect to realise God, but can have mystical experiences (depending on definitions as ever, and this is turning into an intellectual debate in any case). Also if these are not the truth, does that mean they aren't true? Or something else like that there are truths and The Truth.

"Maybe it's just wording, but it's not possible to find truth. Because how to find that which has never been lost?"

Alright, maybe, as I don't find it easy to choose good words for spiritual matters; at the moment my practice is more like a negative process of clearing away the accumulated clutter and distractions to find the truth behind the veil of abstractions.

Cheers for the avatar advice; being an introvert I don't usually go for shiny attention-seeking things but I'll keep looking.

Nick.

Edited September 4, 2019 by MuddyBoots

[Truth Addict]

15 hours ago, MuddyBoots said:

For sure fundamentalist literal religion gives us lots of answers, mostly justified from quoting scripture. So you need to have faith in the scriptures for the whole thing to hang together.  I do understand some of their answers, but only after I have lived through an experience or other which demonstrates it in my reality. In any case I'm in danger of over-generalising here; fundamentalism is a mixed bag so I'll leave it at that.

I don't know if you've been through the same experience as mine. But before I knew of the possibility that my religion could be false, it really hanged together. It's like it was real and true until I'd explored beyond it.

However, as I was growing up and as I started learning concepts, especially concepts like past and future, right and wrong, true and false, etc... I started to question my old beliefs through the lens of the new ones, starting by trying to preserve the old ones, and ending up with having them all destroyed. So, then the newer beliefs took place, and this cycle kept repeating itself maybe five or six times, plus experiencing many regressions, until now. It's like I was drawn to always seek new beliefs and to leave the old ones.

The point of this is coming after the next two quotations.

15 hours ago, MuddyBoots said:

You're caricaturing me a bit here; although I respect the values of liberalism, science and humanitarianism  those aren't my only standards of measurement or judgement; eg intuition, conscience are just as important.  I don't know what you mean by materialistic so I'll let that pass. I was born into a religious culture which didn't work for me spiritually (by my intuition), and was too inflexible to accommodate adjustments, but luckily I had the freedom to explore others without punishment.  Not everyone has that luxury so I'm grateful for that liberalism.  Anyway, yes of course liberalism and science are invented systems, all human systems are invented or created, and give their own points of view.

I apologise, I didn't mean to caricature you. Of course I didn't mean those were your only values, but rather I thought that that was the general theme. Sure I wouldn't know. But was just making a point.

15 hours ago, MuddyBoots said:

Intriguing, would you elaborate on the distinction please?  I suppose not all mystics are theists, and I'm not a theist so don't expect to realise God, but can have mystical experiences (depending on definitions as ever, and this is turning into an intellectual debate in any case). Also if these are not the truth, does that mean they aren't true? Or something else like that there are truths and The Truth.

God-realization is when you discover that reality is basically magical, cannot be explained, and that it does not obey the conceptual systems we create and use. It's when you discover that what you thought of as first order was always second order and vice-versa, as in a creator and a creation, an atheist thinks that humans created the concept of God, where after God-realization you discover that God is the one who created the concept of humans. That's how I would define it, given that I think there's a difference between that and Truth-realization. That is when you discover that the magic of being is true! And that falsehood does not exist at all unless you create it, whether consciously or unconsciously.

A mystical experience is like lucid-dreaming with much more awareness than the usual. It's usually accompanied by loss of the sense of self aka unity with God. I'm not very experienced in this regard, so.

The reason I said that they're not the truth is because they are part of the truth, not the whole of it. When we say something is true, we automatically assume that the opposite is false. So, if I say that God-realization is the truth, then that means that God-unrealization is not. And here it gets very tricky, because it's a paradox, because one remains unrealized until they realise. That's why they say that you're already enlightened, because you actually are but you think that aren't. It's just as simple as that. A thought saying that you're unrealized. You can either stop believing it and then realise, or not and remain bound to it.

15 hours ago, MuddyBoots said:

Alright, maybe, as I don't find it easy to choose good words for spiritual matters; at the moment my practice is more like a negative process of clearing away the accumulated clutter and distractions to find the truth behind the veil of abstractions.

Nick.

That's a great practice, indeed. But make sure you are still able to detach from it at any given point, just so you don't end up in an eternal loop of debunking. I'll give you a pointer that might or might not resonate with you. If you want the absolute truth, kill your doubt. This is it. Stop creating doubt. Here is the truth. You're perceiving it. What else do you require as proof?!

Of course, only if it was that easy. But hey, we can try.

Cheers Nick! ?

Edited September 5, 2019 by Truth Addict
Corrected the following statement: "A thought saying that you're unrealized. You can either stop believing it and then realise, or not and remain bound to it."