How can you trust your mind?

[ground]

15 hours ago, SOUL said:

I experience liberation and there are still beliefs. I believe that these words I type have meaning that can be communicated, I believe that when I hit 'submit reply' these words will post on the forum. Although, I also believe that the meaning and posting of words have no influence and effect on my experience of liberation.

Liberation is the cessation of self suffering not the cessation of belief. Belief is merely a mechanism the mind uses to help us successfully navigate in the manifest existence. Belief can cause self suffering when we attach our awareness to those beliefs so create self identity on those beliefs.

If we abide in unattached awareness of being present any belief held has no self identity creating or sustaining effect in our experience so the cessation of self suffering can be realized in liberation. Belief in that experience is nothing more than just a psychological feature that helps keep the organism alive and not the cause of self suffering.

You have beliefs as well since you type out words trusting they have meaning that can be communicated and hit 'submit reply' trusting they will post on the forum. If Leo paid the bills they will.....we believe.

As I said: you can believe this or you can believe that. I can't do anything about your beliefs. I can't make you drop your beliefs to liberate you.

My words are empty of meaning. your mind synthesizes meaning upon your eyes seeing my word. i do not know the meaning your mind sythesizes. When I type words this is my enjoyment. It is like enjoying dancing. The dance is enjoyed regardless of whether someone is watching or not. The dance doesn't have any meaning.

[SOUL]

59 minutes ago, ground said:

As I said: you can believe this or you can believe that. I can't do anything about your beliefs. I can't make you drop your beliefs to liberate you.

My words are empty of meaning. your mind synthesizes meaning upon your eyes seeing my word. i do not know the meaning your mind sythesizes. When I type words this is my enjoyment. It is like enjoying dancing. The dance is enjoyed regardless of whether someone is watching or not. The dance doesn't have any meaning.

 You sure do dance, you dance around with words and your words have no meaning because they are empty and have no truth, you say it yourself and you believe it.

Liberation doesn't require dropping beliefs, that is just your belief and is a limitation for you, not anyone else.  Liberation is the cessation of self suffering and if you experience liberation this is what you'd be saying to me.

Of course you're not saying this and it is revealing because I can see right through your dances with words.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by SOUL

[ground]

10 minutes ago, SOUL said:

I can see right through your dances with words.

And all you see is your beliefs.

[ground]

13 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Does me believing anything about these posts change anything? 

It does. My experience.

That illustrates nicely how experience and conceptuality are related. If one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of beliefs and 'lean towards' belief.

 

13 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Could it be...That the dance has no meaning...

Because you believe there is no meaning?

It is thus: you think the key you are searching may be on the table in the adjacent room. you go into that room but on the table there is no key.

 

Edited December 30, 2018 by ground

[Anton Rogachevski]

6 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

simultaniously

There's the sneaky thought!

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Anton Rogachevski]

11 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

It does not exist.

Where is the zen master when he's needed? If it really didn't exist, this forum would be futile my dear friend.

 

------

@ivankiss said: "My"

------

The sneakiness occurs when thought are glued together.

For example:

"I did this" =

Thought+Thought+Thought = "action"

In fact only once you apply logic you can declare reality.

While in fact they are noises within a void.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Anton Rogachevski]

25 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

In this humbling moment,

I'd say the ego is an idea. A project.

It is real just as much as anything else isn't.

For me, there is no such thing as "real" or "unreal". 

If it seems to be, it is. As long as it seems so.

No difference in anything really, that is why I dance and create. 

I am getting drunk in my own moves. 

Has nothing to do with ego. And has everything to do with it.

I see mirrors. I see in them what fits.

My ideas and projects are on a cosmic scale.

I want to see all limits and walk right through them. I might as well save the world from slavery 

Notice how egoic that sounds. 

But... Where is this... Ego? 

Is it painted on these words? Or are these... just random simbols? 

 

 

 

 

You are a great artist!

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self. Please see the post above, i've updated.

By the way, blaming the ego is creating two egos.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Aakash]

@Anton Rogachevski i Swear i was sleeping last night and contemplating non duality ... the conclusion i came to after i woke up was simple enlightenment is nothing else besides the delusion of self. 

WHATEVER you define as self is go, 

if the imagination was not from whatever you define as your ego, then it is pure awareness 

it can only be told by the person, because enlightenement is literally just one self-delusion 

Time is another self -delusion, it actuallly has nothing to do with enlightenment imo 

Then the delusion that space is another seperate delusion, 

but the fastest way to become conscious of all this is the process of enlightenment or god consciousness because you identify with literally just everything and comtemplate it 

[Aakash]

It's Divinity and cosmic perfection.

the true-true 

but @ ivankiss is better at illustrating it, than myself. 

I'm still grasping the new paradigm that i'm starting to experience 

[Aakash]

@Anton Rogachevski i can't explain it, logic and reasoning has completely faded. I actually don't know whats real and whats not . I'm actually so fearful of how unrealistic things sound in my head <-- this is my ego. 

Even i know its crazy to think your crazy, i think i'm so weird right now. so i just stopped and listened to rap music in ignorance looool! 

^ This is why i've come to understand the limitation is set by the invidiual personally 

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 hour ago, Aakash said:

Even i know its crazy to think your crazy,

This is the sanest thought possible. This proccess has been described as going crazy in the past. Let go! Allow yourself to lose your mind completely. Surrender to not-knowing.

[ground]

4 hours ago, ivankiss said:

@ground Why do you assume that one is somehow unable to have a belief and simultaniously see through it?

Because belief is imputation of truth. And it is impossible to impute truth and see emptiness [of truth] at the same time. Consciousness may switch from one mode into the other - even at high frequency - but it can never have these two modes at the same time.

4 hours ago, ivankiss said:

I look at my hand and I believe it's a hand.

But that does not mean I don't recognize the belief itself.

Of course you can conceive 'this is [merely] a belief' but even if you conceive so there is still the apparent hand. And if you dissolved the label 'hand' but not directly perceived the nature of belief there still would be 'something', at least intuitively not necessarily a full-fledged concept. If there were no belief at all there'd be neither something nor nothing.

 

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

5 hours ago, ivankiss said:

For me, there is no such thing as "real" or "unreal". 

If it seems to be, it is. As long as it seems so.

No difference in anything really, that is why I dance and create. 

Careful with confusing enlightenment for - "pretending not care about anything." One cannot think his way into liberation.

"You can't wash blood off, with blood." (old zen quote)

[Anton Rogachevski]

@ivankiss

Great to hear. It's just a common trap, in any case it's good to be aware of it.

In a sense there's truth to the fact that thought is free, and one can play with it, and form the reality in which it's comfortable for him to live. It's a great post-rational insight - It frees you, and allows unconditional positive regard. You decide what's right for you, and no one can ever change that, you put your opinion at the top, and become self honest about things. It's really been healing my soul, to be free. 

Thank you for reading and being here dear friend,
Hope to see more of your material here,
And I'm sorry if I hurt you in any way with my arrogance.

Actually our deep mutual contemplation beared fruits today, I had massive insight into the nature of thought (post it as soon as it's ready)

Edited December 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[SOUL]

8 hours ago, ground said:

And all you see is your beliefs

...and that is your belief which you believe is all you see but you cannot create this experience for anyone else except your own self.

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Does me believing anything about these posts change anything? 

It does. My experience.

This comes to the core of this thread's topic, can we trust our own mind if is capable of being deluded? Belief is the psychological trust we place into something being what it appears to be. So can we trust the trust of our mind? If in our experience we have the cessation of self suffering then there is no doubt in our liberation even if it is a delusion, it is what it is because it is our experience of it.

8 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Could it be...That the dance has no meaning...

Because you believe there is no meaning?

There is a delicate dance between what we perceive things to be and what really is. So even though we get to draw our own map of meaning, our perception of what is doesn't actually change what really is but just maps out how we perceive it. This is why I create a simple map that doesn't have difficult requirements for the cessation of self suffering so I do experience that liberation.

 

8 hours ago, ivankiss said:

You all show some dope dance moves here.

Why are you dancing in the first place?

In celebration of life....

8 hours ago, ground said:

If one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of beliefs and 'lean towards' belief.

So you impute truth to the concept and belief that if one imputes the tiniest bit of truth to conceptuality one will never let go of belief and lean towards belief so you don't let go of this belief and lean towards it. See how that works? Dances with words....

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Why do you assume that one is somehow unable to have a belief and simultaniously see through it?

Precisely. Although, it is when we identify with the belief and attach our 'self' to it that there is the potential to self suffer because of it. This is why I suggest in unattached awareness of the self and it's contents including belief allows for liberation from self suffering. My own experience realizes this even if it is merely a delusion...haha

6 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self.

I liken the ego to the self's advocate......it wants us to attach and works to attach to the construct and content of self to justify itself.

7 hours ago, ivankiss said:

I am getting drunk in my own moves.

This is us.....

Dancing with delusion.

[Anton Rogachevski]

11 minutes ago, SOUL said:

7 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

"The ego" is the attachment to the idea of self.

I liken the ego to the self's advocate......it wants us to attach and works to attach to the construct and content of self to justify itself.

Since it's an idea in the first place, how can it "want"?

[Azrael]

On 12/27/2018 at 1:05 AM, Roman Edouard said:

My question is: how can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are true if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures?

Your question is misleading. A belief can never be right or wrong as it abstracts a set of similar experiences to a never seen, idealized model that doesn't exist. Take a perfect circle for example. You have seen endless very close approximations of a circle, but you have actually never seen the real thing in its mathematical perfection. Although you use the concept of this perfect circle as the mean or belief to differentiate all the approximates you see from different objects.

So your question should be: How can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are useful if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures.

[SOUL]

3 hours ago, ground said:

Because belief is imputation of truth.

You are a very active imputer of truth on this forum with all your beliefs about what is impossible or can't or must and on and on that you attempt to project onto everyone else's experience.

 

[SOUL]

3 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Since it's an idea in the first place, how can it "want"?

Well, the ego is the personification of our self's desire to identify with itself so even though it's not much more than a conceptual construct it is a manifestation of the many impulses, urges, ideas, beliefs, thoughts, desires and mental paradigms.

[Anton Rogachevski]

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

12 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Since it's an idea in the first place, how can it "want"?

Well, the ego is the personification of our self's desire to identify with itself so even though it's not much more than a conceptual construct it is a manifestation of the many impulses, urges, ideas, beliefs, thoughts, desires and mental paradigms.

And so it's the impulses that dellude. The innocent little ego is the devil's scapegoat.

Therefore any statement beginning with: "My ego" is basically delusion.