I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[Aakash]

@winterknight  deleted

Edited July 7, 2019 by Aakash

[Ibn Sina]

@winterknight Look, your idea that there is no experience doesn't even make sense.  ( I am not talking about the brain, the discussion is already over, I know you don't believe in the brain, don't bring that up again)

It's not like I am a complete materialist, for a long time I have read and followed and loved ( and still do) Buddha, Osho, Leo Gura, and their teachings make sense, that is why they have huge followers not you.

None of them have ever said that 'That is not experience'.

Even Leo Gura the founder of this site that you are using to increase your followers, believes that there is nothing but direct experience.

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/36099-direct-experience-relativity/#comment-446252

"There is nothing but direct experience, so you have no other other but to trust it.

Name one thing which isn't in your direct experience? You cannot." - Leo

And here you are disagreeing again and again without any reason.

When you say, that is not experience, it's like saying a triangle is round, a square has 5 sides,the color red is blue.

This only means that you have lost a follower, who is actually a follower and  lover of people like Osho, Sadhguru, Leo , Buddha.

If you want to gain followers then you can't put out nonsensical (hence false) stuff and expect you will have a mass following. Yes, there will be those who will follow you, doesn't mean everyone will, because people do sense truth, and when they sense truth they flock there. Where there is truth, there is a following. 

Your philosophy base itself is not properly made, so it's difficult to believe you have moved up spiritually.

Even if you get followers , it will be because you focused on other stuffs, but just try putting 'there is no experience' as your central teaching and go on emphasizing it again and again, I bet there won't be many following you.

Instead of giving short  quip answers like that of Deepak Chopra that sound intelligent , try to properly convince people that 'that is not experience, realization of xyz (meaningless of language, inchorehence of realization as concept, your definition of enlightenment) is not experience, try doing that. And that would be impressive.

You constantly play the word game- realization of destruction of incoherence of language.

Reminding me of Deepak Chopra. And guess what, he plays that game even better, and he has millions of followers. 

And the common consensus about him whether you look at his youtube video comments, or google search or his facebook page comments, is that he is a charlatan.

While people like Buddha, Osho, Sadhguru, Leo are revered.

Because everybody loves those who spread the light of truth. (over time atleast. Like Jesus was crucified, Bruno was burned, but they are saints now).

While those who spread of lies, are not. (Joseph Smith, Mormonism, Scientology)

You don't have to put in it in highly complex terms like you and Deepak Chopra do. Truth is pure and simple. Just saying " Okay, I can't convince you , you yourself should walk the path" ignoring me would make me feel(though notfull convince) that you are enlightened, but using highly complex words to redefine, correct my statements over and over again, 

I don't see Buddha or Osho doing that.

They would just ignore me and rest in their bliss. 

Which also shows sign of egolessness, but your posts shows the opposite.

I don't see any bodhisattva like compassion radiating from you and I am talking about each of your post, not this one.  Just continuosly correcting and redefining terms according to your ideology. This is __. This is not___ but ____.All your post are of that kind.

It shouldn't be very difficulto for a lay person to identify when he sees a truly enlightened person, atleast not as difficult as doing a sherlock holmes investigation. Even animals recognize an enlightened being.  Even plants do. 

And here not only do I not immediately feel like you are enlightened (which I should if you truly were) but allyour behavioural evidence,the demonstration of your ego, your obvious desire to get followers your youtube vids, point toward opposite.

You are indoctrinated. That's all.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Jkris]

@Ibn Sina https://o-meditation.com/2011/03/17/enlightenment-is-not-an-experience-osho/

Read it carefully what osho says 

Winterknight is straight doesnt talk juicy artistic poetic like osho or many others which will just make the seekers caught in the spiritual labyrinth.

Doesnt verbalize or conceptualize that which cannot be said.

He is not talking about mystical experiences and is not even bothered to talk about them.That is Self Enquiry.

All he is saying do self enquiry and realize it for yourself.Have psychoanalysis that is helpful as well for purification.

He doesnt add to confusion by sharing his personal experiences etc.

But winterknights no nonsense approach is not convincing you - you are free to choose like whom ever you prefer.

 

[Ibn Sina]

48 minutes ago, Jkris said:

@Ibn Sina https://o-meditation.com/2011/03/17/enlightenment-is-not-an-experience-osho/

Read it carefully what osho says 

Winterknight is straight doesnt talk juicy artistic poetic like osho or many others which will just make the seekers caught in the spiritual labyrinth.

Doesnt verbalize or conceptualize that which cannot be said.

He is not talking about mystical experiences and is not even bothered to talk about them.That is Self Enquiry.

All he is saying do self enquiry and realize it for yourself.Have psychoanalysis that is helpful as well for purification.

He doesnt add to confusion by sharing his personal experiences etc.

But winterknights no nonsense approach is not convincing you - you are free to choose like whom ever you prefer.

 

@Jkris

Okay, but still he is saying it in a sense of 'absence' of experience isn't he?

Which is also an experience. 

"ven great travelers of the inner world have got stuck in beautiful experiences, and have become identified with those experiences, thinking, “I have found myself.” They have stopped before reaching the final stage where all experiences disappear.

Enlightenment is not an experience."

Enlightenment is not experience like looking at  a mountain, psychedelic images induced during meditation(beautiful experience)

Osho has not contradicted my(and Leo's) view of experience the way winterknight has.

If you find a link where someone asks Osho Is the absence of experience an experience or not? and like winterknight Osho says no it is not, then I will say okay, winterknight is correct, and I will be surprised  how Osho's followers bought that.

When winterknight says there is no experience, it's like saying triangle is a circle. (context, he says enlightenment is destruction of ignorance, realization of ___,I ask that's an experiencee isn't it?ans - it's not)

When osho says it, read the other contexts- 

"Even great travelers of the inner world have got stuck in beautiful experiences, and have become identified with those experiences, thinking, “I have found myself.” They have stopped before reaching the final stage where all experiences disappear."

And as I said previously, the way , the context at which Osho says Enlightenment is not an experience, makes sense , hence his reader(me) feels happy, and I think he is legit, so do millions who revere him. And I have read his many books and I can say they always makes sense, the way non-dualism makes sense, experiencing the oneness in meditation makes sense, samadhi makes sense, spiritual ecstasy makes sense.

While winterknight's "Enlightenment is not an experience", does not make sense when looking at the context. ( Like triangle = a circle). Giving me a  Deepak Chopra vibe instead of Osho vibe.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Jkris]

@Ibn Sina Osho says it is not an experience and so says winterknight so says the scriptures.

The practice of Neti Neti and Self Enquiry is based on this.

If it is an experience they would have said it is an experience.

No matter one try to understand with mind one cannot.

All books read heard elaborate writings are just pointers and need to discarded.

Dont cling to the pointers.

So discard them and start your practice.

There is nothing to read,hear or understand anymore from anybody except the doubts difficulties in the path one may have.

Leo too emphasizes the same dont try to understand what Self or awareness is with your mind.Leo too is emphasizing the practice.Nothing more.

What ever practice one may do finally one will have to come to self enquiry - The direct path.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Jkris

[Ibn Sina]

8 minutes ago, Jkris said:

sho says it is not an experience and so says winterknight so says the scriptures.

I have already said that the context  is different , and the  meanings imparted by Osho and winterknight are different.
I hope you know Leo also says there is only experience, nothing else.

Reality is an affirmitive , Existence IS. Reality IS. It is not ABSENCE. It is a Presence.

Go ask your beloved Leo. I am sure something like above was written by Leo somewhere.

And No I don't think scriptures talk about the absence of reality. Hinduism says there IS Brahama. Buddhism says there IS sunyata.

A link about exactly saying - not an experience written in the scripture, would help. I know about concepts of maya, and so on, I hope you are not talking about that.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Nahm]

@Ibn Sina If there’s experience, you’re aware of it, and referring to it as, “experience”. What do you call the experience when there’s no “it”? (Just the you)

[Jkris]

@Ibn Sina I dont see any difference between what osho,winterknight or leo says.

All are saying the same realize it for yourself.Dont cling to our words.Dont believe our words.

But if is an experience who the experiencer is ? thats the whole search seeking is all about.

[psychedelicsresearch]

Thanks, winterknight.

One final question on this topic: I sometimes observe a certain smugness or attitude of superiority in psychedelics users, as if they are true wizards in a world of Harry Potter-style muggles, whose fear of psychedelic gnosis traps them behind a self-imposed veil of ignorance. There may be something similar among meditators and other spiritual practitioners, but perhaps less pronounced.

The wizard-muggle divide may not be entirely mistaken, of course, but self-congratulatory pride might nevertheless seem problematic on a path that supposedly leads toward some form of ego dissolution. How big a problem do you regard this to be? Is psychedelics use especially dangerous in this regard, as it may allow for immature people to have experiences they are not well equipped to integrate?

One could imagine that for some people psychedelics use becomes a sort of anti-path that leads only to a cycle of ego-reinforcement, and that this is a major problem.

[Ibn Sina]

19 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Ibn Sina If there’s experience, you’re aware of it, and referring to it as, “experience”. What do you call the experience when there’s no “it”? (Just the you)

I can't say I am enligtened, but I can perfectly see that there can be a mode of consciousness where there is absolutely lack of any references   an experience of absolute lack of references, just pure , pulsing consciousness. Like what happens when you take

5 meo, isn't that pure consciousness? isn't that experience?

May be I am wrong, but you know, even if there is absolutely lack of any references and any consciousness, i see (an can't unsee ) that it is perfectly experience

Eg- there are organismslike plants, who I am sure do not have any referencing going on, there is no division between it and other, there are coelentrates ,sponges who are as good as a rock. But still, even if there i no referencing, I can see it as experience. 

An experience devoid of all references.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Ibn Sina]

5 minutes ago, Jkris said:

I dont see any difference between what osho,winterknight or leo says.

All are saying the same realize it for yourself.Dont cling to our words

@Jkris

Okay, if you are not considering  the words, then yes, all those 3 are same. You are right. 
But if you happen to look at the words, then please notice that what winterknight , Leo and Osho says are different.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Nahm]

@Ibn Sina This is more something to chew on today than something that ‘clicks’ right away, but, just keep asking inwardly... Am I aware of that thought? And..  Can I think awareness? Notice there appears to be a unidirectional order of experience. Consciousness (awareness) is always first, Conscious of. It’s not last, as a product of the brain, in your own direct experience, right now. It’s not a trip, it’s not found in a lab, it’s discovered to already be the direct experience. Then begin to be attentive every time the thoughts have “you” and “others” and “past & future” in them, and return to direct experience by noticing you are not in the thought story, or past, or future - you are Present, Directly Aware of. Approach this like someone just told you a joke, and you’re waiting for the punchline to click - not like serious neurology stuff.

[Ibn Sina]

@Nahm 

?

That  is what is very difficult for me. Too difficult. Thoughts  come and  go in me , I am not enlightened ?

My only concern was someone who claims to be enlightened, saying-  absence of experience like in 5-meo is not experience (like color red is blue) ), something I have never heard from any person of credibility (counting Leo). 

I just said it's wrong. 

That's all. 

Like some statements are self-evidently true.

Like, A girl is female.

A boy is male.

Color white looks white.

And winterknight is contradicing that.

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Nahm]

@Ibn Sina  You’re talking about yourself, others, past & future, just be away of that. That’s all. You’re not in that thought, you’re what’s aware of it. When someone says “I am enlightened” - simply don’t fall for it. When you do, it’s only by thinking “and I’m not”   (it’s bs though)

 

[Ibn Sina]

@Nahm

I don't know why your posts make me smile. You are different.  ?

[Nahm]

@Ibn Sina Perhaps you recognize a bit of your self, and it is good. 

[Ibn Sina]

@Nahm ?

 

[winterknight]

3 hours ago, Ibn Sina said:

@winterknight You are indoctrinated. That's all.

Sorry I couldn’t satisfy you. Hope you find what you're looking for elsewhere.

[Nahm]

@Ibn Sina Perhaps you recognize a bit of your self, and it is good. 

[winterknight]

41 minutes ago, psychedelicsresearch said:

Thanks, winterknight.

One final question on this topic: I sometimes observe a certain smugness or attitude of superiority in psychedelics users, as if they are true wizards in a world of Harry Potter-style muggles, whose fear of psychedelic gnosis traps them behind a self-imposed veil of ignorance. There may be something similar among meditators and other spiritual practitioners, but perhaps less pronounced.

The wizard-muggle divide may not be entirely mistaken, of course, but self-congratulatory pride might nevertheless seem problematic on a path that supposedly leads toward some form of ego dissolution. How big a problem do you regard this to be? Is psychedelics use especially dangerous in this regard, as it may allow for immature people to have experiences they are not well equipped to integrate?

One could imagine that for some people psychedelics use becomes a sort of anti-path that leads only to a cycle of ego-reinforcement, and that this is a major problem.

Yeah, that sounds like a plausible problem. I can't say for sure based on my experience... It's probably a toss-up whether psychedelics open more eyes to spiritual possibility or keep them stuck chasing mystical experiences instead of going further.