Spiral Dynamics Stage Orange Examples Mega-Thread

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Outer said:

Defense isn't in violation of the non-aggression principle. It is the initiation of force that is. So an anarcho-communist commune can defend itself, or a community of individuals in an anarcho-capitalist "commune".

@Leo Gura

Lol, to the ego, there is no difference between defense and offense. Your anarcho-communist commune will attack a neighboring commune and slit all their throats in the name of "self defense". Of course they will rationalize it to themselves as being fully consistent with their lofty non-aggression principle, in exactly the same way that the US rationalized the invasion of Iraq as "liberation" and self-defense against evil-doers.

What you are describing is exactly what governments do now. Only you're describing a version of it from 10,000 years ago. It's like you want to roll social evolution back by 10,000 years, thinking it will hold. But you can't wish nuclear weapons away.

[Outer]

Where is anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism, respectively, on the spiral? Where are they in integral theory?

Where is both anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism?

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol, to the ego, there is no difference between defense and offense. Your anarcho-communist commune will attack a neighboring commune and slit all their throats in the name of "self defense".

Then that commune is initiating force and violating the non-aggression principle though? The difference between defense and offense is defined by the principles in which people agree upon. So if 100 people agree to not initiate force,  those words actually mean something, unless they were dishonest and lying. And most people are honest.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Outer said:

The difference between defense and offense is defined by the principles in which people agree upon.

No! You fundamentally misunderstand how ego works.

Ego defines everything relative to itself. "Self-defense" and "good" just mean: whatever is good FOR ME -- whatever I believe.

People do not agree on anything. That's the whole problem.

People are dishonest and lying ALL THE TIME! Most people are full of shit, even with themselves. All of those libertarians are full of shit. Therein lies the problem. They don't realize their own bullshit. All of their high ideals are just fantasies of the ego which is acting noble when in fact it is a selfish devil. A libertarian has no idea of how the ego is running the entire show.

A libertarian is just a devil in sheep's clothing. What's worse, he's so deluded he's managed to convince himself he's an angel. At least a warlord is honest with himself that he's a devil.

[Rilles]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

The difference between defense and offense is defined by the principles in which people agree upon.

The invasion of Iraq was US “defending” itself against terrorism, look where that ended up.

[Outer]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No! You fundamentally misunderstand how ego works.

Ego defines everything relative to itself. Self-defense and "good" just mean: whatever is good FOR ME.

People do not agree on anything. That's the whole problem.

People are dishonest and lying ALL THE TIME! Most people are full of shit, even with themselves. All of those libertarians are full of shit. Therein lies the problem. They don't realize their own bullshit. All of their high ideals are just fantasies of the ego which is acting noble when in fact it is a selfish devil.

A libertarian is just a devil in sheep's clothing. What's worse, he's so deluded he's managed to convince himself he's an angel.

But it isn't what's good for the me that for instance anarcho-capitalism, and anarcho-communism would be built upon, it is the rejection of initiation of force against the other. Not what is good for the me, but that anyone do not initiate force against you, for political or social goals.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Outer

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Outer said:

But it isn't what's good for me that for instance anarcho-capitalism, and anarcho-communism would be built upon, it is the rejection of initiation of force against the other. Not what is good for me, but that I do not initiate force against you, for political or social goals.

Without initiation of force against others life could not exist.

Survival is force, manipulation, theft, killing, and deception.

You are lying to yourself that you do not initiate force. See how you pretend to be an angel while actually being a devil?

As soon as your survival is threatened, you will initiate force and then you will justify it to yourself as not an initiation of force. Because in your egoic delusion you are an angel and must maintain that heroic self-image. By definition, anything you say, do, or think is "good" in your own mind because all you know and care about is your survival. All of your high ideals are just part of your survival strategy. They are survival through deception.

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Without initiation of force against others life could not exist.

You are lying to yourself that you do not initiate force. See how you pretend to be an angel while actually being a devil?

How does life not exist without initiation of force? Can you not be born in a Mars colony, thrive on plants, and not initiate force against anyone?

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Outer said:

How does life not exist without initiation of force? Can you not be born in a Mars colony, thrive on plants, and not initiate force against anyone?

Mars colonies don't materialize from thin air. It takes 4 billion years of murder to create a Mars colony. And on that Mars colony you will have people who will use force to survive. Not to mention your killing of plants (which of course you conveniently don't even consider as initiation of force). But you are literally enslaving plants and eating them. Did you ask the plant for permission to eat it? Is the plant being eaten voluntarily?

Do you see how ridiculously self-biased your whole worldview is? You are so selfish you don't even see your actions as selfishness!

[Outer]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Mars colonies don't materialize from thin air. It takes 4 billion years of murder to create a Mars colony. And on that Mars colony you will have people who will use force to survive. Not to mention your killing of plants (which of course you conveniently don't even consider as initiation of force). But you are literally enslaving plants and eating them.

Yes, there have been millions of years of murder and rape. So what if you were eating fruit on the Mars colony?

[now is forever]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

Yes, there have been millions of years of murder and rape. So what if you were eating fruit on the Mars colony?

maybe an apple? asked the snake.

[Leo Gura]

@Outer So what if I eat all of your Mars colony fruit before you get there and lock you out in the cold? And then I grill up your corpse for dinner.

I didn't initiate any force. I was just eating fruit and then found a juicy corpse lying outside so why let it go to waste?

[now is forever]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Outer So what if eat all of your Mars colony fruit before you get there and lock you out in the cold? And then I grill up your corpse for dinner.

I didn't initiate any force. I was just eating fruit and then found a juicy corpse lying outside so why let it go to waste?

yes canibalism is a huge topic - especially on mars. and i guess inner fruitism falls prey to that a lot, but fruitism can turn out to be inner canibalism if the carnivoirs are not seen - so really what to do against all the canibalism.

kommunism, anarchism, socialism, democratism, it is endless.

Edited December 18, 2018 by now is forever

[CreamCat]

@Leo Gura Do you want to eat human corpse? That's not palatable.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Leo Gura Do you want to eat human corpse? That's not palatable.

When you are cold and hungry on Mars and you've been eating fruit for 20 years straight and you're craving some BBQ ribs, you will reconsider

[CreamCat]

You definitely sound like an honest devil. Are you trying to make people more honest?

[Rilles]

You guys have fun on your Mars colony lol. These guys couldnt even make it in America... I mean just go to a KFC for Christs sake... not that hard

Edited December 18, 2018 by Rilles

[Leo Gura]

@Rilles You don't have to go that far back:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/09/26/russian-cannibal-couple-may-have-drugged-killed-and-eaten-as-many-as-30-people-police-say/

[CreamCat]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Rilles You don't have to go that far back:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/09/26/russian-cannibal-couple-may-have-drugged-killed-and-eaten-as-many-as-30-people-police-say/

They weren't starving. Were they doing it for fun? I guess they are psychopaths. From pure economic perspective, it would be cheaper to just buy food than to murder and eat people. So, it was not done for economic reasons or out of hunger.

I heard psychopaths do not feel disgust when they see dismembered body parts.

Edited December 18, 2018 by CreamCat

[now is forever]

@CreamCat i‘m not sure if this example fits so well to talk about stage orange ideology canibalism. reasoning of canibalism and word canibalism might have some similarities but it can get kind of tasteless - i would still prefer the fruit then.

but if you want: what’s the difference between psychopathic canibalism and stage beige regress.

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

I heard psychopaths do not feel disgust when they see dismembered body parts.

In other words, they behave just like humans do towards fruit and animals.

Disgust is an ego survival mechanism.