are all famous, successful, and strong women very masculine?

[Hardkill]

This may seem like an odd question, but I remember Leo mentioning in one or two of his Youtube videos on masculinity vs. femininity that men generally are more ambitious, competitive, strong, tenacious, courageous, aggressive, analytical/logical, and career-focused than women because those traits have all been determined not just by society, but by genetic evolution to be masculine qualities. However, we all know that there are many women out there in the world who have become very successful business women, entrepreneurs, lawyers, doctors, mathematicians, scientists, politicians, pro athletes, celebrities, etc. or soldiers, law enforcers, etc. who are strong, aggressive, courageous, and tenacious. Have all of these women been exceptions to rule of femininity? Are all of them rare women who were born to be masculine? I am just curious. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Hardkill

[BjarkeT]

i don't really think it matters that much as success (deepening on the field) require different abilities i wouldn't count the possibility out that there is someone feminine out there who is successful but its a good question 

[Elisabeth]

1) Depends on how you define "masculine"

2) Depends on how you define success. 

If you define success as having big ambitiotion and achieving them despite competition, and if you attribute ambition and competitiveness to men, then yes, successful women have strong masculine traits. (Yet some of them have strong feminine traits at the same time, which I personally kind of admire and strive for.) 

But note that while I don't deny there may be a statistical difference in that men are more competitive, it's a) just statistics, b) you still don't know how much of it is hormonal and how much it's cultural. I claim that what is considered masculine is more culture-dependent then what you immagine.

Even if you buy into some kind of masculine vs. feminine division/principle as some spiritual practices do - you should also say that each person has both principles in them, and that it's worth cultivating both "halves" of your character. 

Finally, the notion of success is totally culture dependent. What if you considered a person who's living a healthy, balanced, minimalist lifestyle a successful one? What if you considered sustainability and contribution a measure of success in business, instead of maximising profit? What if the capacity for love and empathy was your criterion to judge a person's success? Do you still think success would correlate with masculinity? 

[Leo Gura]

@Hardkill You're misunderstanding femininity.

There is no contradiction between feminine, strong, famous, and successful.

[Ugly Wolf]

As already said, it mainly seems to be an issue of defining masculinity and femininity.

If you’re interested in understanding the alleged duality of masculinity and femininity better, I’d highly recommend reading the books

„The Way of the Superior Man“ by David Deida and

„Women Who Run With the Wolves“ by Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estés.

Both are fun to read and extremely different in their style of storytelling and reasoning. As different as they are, they both point to the exact same thing, but in completely opposite ways. In my opinion, that in itself is a great lesson. BONUS: You'll become great with women ;-)

And don’t forget that humans tend to „naturalize“ constructs that society created over time, thinking that they are inherent to the nature of being human, or in this case, a certain sex. Things like aggressiveness in men, greater beauty in women, romantic love, are all relatively young social constructs.

If there is one thing that is inherent to human nature, it is its plasticity or moldability. Almost nothing is a natural part of being human. Humans can be anything, adapt to anything, behave in every possible manner and believe anything. It might just be the same with what we define as men and women.

[alyra]

a lot of the attributes that we stereotype as masculine and feminine exist in all humans but are just more noticeable or more present in a noticeable number of men or a noticeable number of women.

there's plenty of ambitious women I know, but I never thought of them as masculine.

 

I wouldn't say I'm ambitious though

[Shroomdoctor]

On 1.12.2017 at 11:57 AM, Ugly Wolf said:

If there is one thing that is inherent to human nature, it is its plasticity or moldability. Almost nothing is a natural part of being human. Humans can be anything, adapt to anything, behave in every possible manner and believe anything. It might just be the same with what we define as men and women.

That was really inspiring, somehow. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Assertiveness.  You gotta be tough, focused, driven, and assertive to be successful as an entrepreneur.  Women have this in them too just like men do.  It’s funny, a talented women is so much more capable than a man in business.  I’ve seen it.  Once women lose their fears and timidity, they really become amazing in business.  I could give you examples of this.  My office is in a Center with other entrepreneurs in downtown San Francisco.  Some of the very best entrepreneurs I’ve seen over the years in my Center are strong, assertive women.  They’re great with relationships too in a way that most men kinda suck at.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Ugly Wolf]

@Marco_the_Ape Thanks :-) I am not sure if it is entirely true. I am sure that you can overcome anything, but I am not sure where we actually start when we are born. We still have to follow Maslow's hierarchy, don't we? But then, there is at least only one hierarchy and not one per gender ;-)

@Joseph Maynor That is a very good point. It seems that men and women are not so much held back by capability, but fear.

As a woman, I can say that it is almost a universal fear to be called bossy, bitchy or ugly (or worse: cute) when you are just standing your ground and trying to be successful. Women are so afraid of it, because it is dead on target. Your biggest fear is being unattractive. An unattractive woman is a failure, right? You're not gonna find a man, be unlovable and will definitely become a spinster. Your mum was right after all, you better put on make up and modest, but at the same time revealing clothes and a smile, so people will like you. No one will see how ugly and aggressive you really are.

Likewise for men. You're afraid that if you show how weak and confused you actually are, if you admit that you need help taking care of yourself in some aspect, people will say that you can't be a provider, that you're a nursing case, useless and are basically a disappointment as a man. Better man up and pretend to be in control, so noone will see what you knew in your heart all along.

Both men and women are horribly afraid of being stripped of their bartering object, their masculinity or femininity, which they need to get love and approval. In the end, they want the same in different ways. It's no one's fault, it's systematic. And there are only two ways to escape it. A bad one and a good one.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Ugly Wolf
spell check

[Shroomdoctor]

16 minutes ago, Ugly Wolf said:

As a woman, I can say that it is almost a universal fear to be called bossy, bitchy or ugly (or worse: cute) when you are just standing your ground and trying to be successful. Women are so afraid of it, because it is dead on target. Your biggest fear is being unattractive. An unattractive woman is a failure, right? You're not gonna find a man, be unlovable and will definitely become a spinster. Your mum was right after all, you better put on make up and modest, but at the same time revealing clothes and a smile, so people will like you. No one will see how ugly and aggressive you really are.

Likewise for men. You're afraid that if you show how weak and confused you actually are, if you admit that you need help taking care of yourself in some aspect, people will say that you can't be a provider, that you're a nursing case, useless and are basically a disappointment as a man. Better man up and pretend to be in control, so noone will see what you knew in your heart all along.

Both men and women are horribly afraid of being stripped of their bartering object, their masculinity or femininity, which they need to get love and approval. In the end, they want the same in different ways. It's no one's fault, it's systematic. And there are only two ways to escape it. A bad one and a good one.

I really like the idea of 'dismantling your defenses', which results in freedom from these 'should's' and 'have to's', while at the same time builds your confidence and satisfaction with yourself.

Or you can just cover up everything with even more lies and fake masks. 

21 minutes ago, Ugly Wolf said:

Thanks :-) I am not sure if it is entirely true. I am sure that you can overcome anything, but I am not sure where we actually start when we are born. We still have to follow Maslow's hierarchy, don't we? But then, there is at least only one hierarchy and not one per gender ;-)

I'm not even sure about that. Actually, you can start wherever you want. Sure, some ways are more effective then others, but the path is quite different for everybody.