Martin Ball says physical reality is real

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Jirh said:

I doubt awakening. I think it could be a limitation in ability rather than an arrival at a final absolute truth.

Using consciousness to make claims about truth is fallible, because it's self-biased. We need something outside of consciousness to make such claims. But we are limited to consciousness, so we cannot know anything outside of it. But it would be wrong to assume that limitation to be a feature. I think it's a bug.

This is why psychedelics are important on the path.  

[Jirh]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

This is why psychedelics are important on the path.  

Martin Ball's conclusions seem to disagree.

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are not going to understand that without Awakening.

You need to be intelligent enough to realize that your logic is not sufficient to solve the question of Consciousness & Truth.

Consciousness is not a physical thing, it is an ontological thing.

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Physical means nothing, there are not categories, everything is the reality. And I'm awaken enough to don't say to the people that I'm right because I'm awake and they aren't, that's very low. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Jirh said:

Using consciousness to make claims about truth is fallible

Not if Consciousness = Truth.

When you deny that consciousness can access Truth, that's fallible. You could be wrong about that.

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Physical means nothing, there are not categories, everything is the reality. And I'm awaken enough to don't say to the people that I'm right because I'm awake and they aren't, that's very low. 

Don't make it personal. I am trying to help you.

You are not yet Awake enough to understand what Consciousness/Truth is.

Edited 3 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Jirh said:

I doubt awakening. I think it could be a limitation in ability rather than an arrival at a final absolute truth.

Using consciousness to make claims about truth is fallible, because it's self-biased. We need something outside of consciousness to make such claims. But we are limited to consciousness, so we cannot know anything outside of it. But it would be wrong to assume that limitation to be a feature. I think it's a bug.

The absolute truth is that you are, anyone knows it. The real awakening is the openess to what you are. Can't be thought, it's the unlimited, the absolute potential, the source.

It's in you, you are the door that encloses the perception to the source, but same time you are the key to the revelation of the absolute potential that the unlimited implies. Your heart is the key, it's inside your heart, and the door that encloses it is made of fear. 

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't make it personal. I trying to help you.

You are not yet Awaken enough to understand what Consciousness/Truth is.

Don't be passive aggressive, I didn't make it personal, I just asked you to explain how consciousness is the truth. 

Ok, you explained, you are awake and I'm not. Understood.

[Breakingthewall]

Anyway, respect for the creator of actualized, no argues. 

[Hojo]

Its not energy there's something in the universe that isn't energy. Or something outside the universe looking in that is not energy. It dosent need energy to exist.

Edited 2 hours ago by Hojo

[Jirh]

It's a hard problem, no matter how you slice it.

 

[Leo Gura]

It's not a problem at all, just Awaken.

Awakening is absolute.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Jirh]

It's still a hard problem, even with awakening considered.

Awakening just means realizing that consciousness is absolute. But that realization is self-biased, because it's coming from consciousness. We need something outside of consciousness to confirm that conclusion. But to us, there is nothing outside of consciousness. So we lack the required instruments to make a final conclusion.

The hard problem of consciousness negates materialism, but it doesn't confirm idealism.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Jirh said:

It's still a hard problem, even with awakening considered.

Awakening just means realizing that consciousness is absolute. But that realization is self-biased, because it's coming from consciousness. We need something outside of consciousness to confirm that conclusion. But to us, there is nothing outside of consciousness. So we lack the required instruments to make a final conclusion.

The hard problem of consciousness negates materialism, but it doesn't confirm idealism.

NO.

You do not know what you are talking about.

[Hojo]

24 minutes ago, Jirh said:

It's still a hard problem, even with awakening considered.

Awakening just means realizing that consciousness is absolute. But that realization is self-biased, because it's coming from consciousness. We need something outside of consciousness to confirm that conclusion. But to us, there is nothing outside of consciousness. So we lack the required instruments to make a final conclusion.

The hard problem of consciousness negates materialism, but it doesn't confirm idealism.

Conciousness is the outside. You say there must be an outside for conciousness to be but your conciousness is outside of reality. Your conciousness right now is outside of whatever you are witnessing. Notice how you can close your eyes and cut off everything. If you do it long enough everything even sensations of your own body dissapear.

If someone is looking at you and they close their eyes you dont dissapear and they don't dissapear because their conciousness is behind them. And your conciousness is behind you.

That same space of conciousness is behind your wall, the sky, the people you see.. Its 360 degrees around then entire field of awareness.

 

If you see conciousness you see its not even here its outside. Like if someone is looking at a tv set their conciousness is not inside the TV set they are gathering information from.

Its in another dimension entirely outside the tv set.

If you awaken the first thing you notice is that you are not even in reality.

The whole of reality is completely dead. Even your own body is dead. No emotions no sound no people. Life is behind the tv.

Edited 1 hour ago by Hojo

[Jirh]

29 minutes ago, Hojo said:

You say there must be an outside for conciousness to be 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not denying that consciousness exists. Obviously, it does.

I'm doubting that consciousness is all that there is. There could be something outside of it, and I'm open to that possibility, even if most people are closed to it.

[Jirh]

I don't know about others, but for me, hitting a limitation does not mean reaching a final conclusion. It means stalemate until clarity emerges, if it ever does.

[Oppositionless]

24 minutes ago, Jirh said:

I'm doubting that consciousness is all that there is. There could be something outside of it, and I'm open to that possibility, even if most people are closed to it.

I don't think there's anything outside of consciousness but I'm skeptical of anyone's ability to define it. The hard problem of consciousness in philosophy of mind effectively limited it to just its phenomenal aspect, the "what it's like to be"ness of it, because presumably that's the only thing that materialism can't explain. In doing so consciousness was stripped of an inherent will, creativity, intelligence, etc. Also, deep sleep, which many deeply awakened people have said is another state of consciousness, pretty much negates the definition of consciousness as just "what it's like to be."

if you define consciousness just as the screen of perception then I would say no consciousness isn't all there is. 

Edited 30 minutes ago by Oppositionless

[Jirh]

@Oppositionless Thanks. You just made the problem harder than it was 😭

[Leo Gura]

No. No. No.

You guys are totally off track.

You are deluding each other.

[Thought Art]

Guy, this is what I think consciousness is based on my personal trips, contemplations, readings, experiences, etc Consciousness is Whatever is actually true right now in actuality.  The total present experience of “life” or “awareness” where your perspective takes place in is really a field of self reflective absolute and intelligent qualia.  It’s not going anywhere. Consciousness is what I call the absolute qualia of actuality. Consiousness  is the infinity space of actual observation and experience. It takes place in the “mystery zone”. Which is here. It’s a strange loop. And, it’s an intelligent field of consciousness. Which is the “Goodness” that reality is an intelligent and self conscious and aware infinity space. 

These are my contemplations, or understandings from 5medmt and nnDMT especially. I share this to add a perspective to your debating. I suspect there is so many ways to think of it. But, It’s really the self, infinity, a dream, Toetle. Etc

Martin Ball is unique in his thinking and processing. He is a packaged thing though. I hear him speak and he is rigid for some reason. I enjoy learning from him. I think I have lots to learn from him. 

Edited 4 minutes ago by Thought Art