What would make you commit murder?

[trenton]

I have learned a lot about criminology as I came to understand evil from a psychological perspective. I used this as a tool for self reflection as I learned about the similarities between myself and criminal offenders including the psychological properties of sex offenders which would overlap with my psyche. This information helps inform prevention by not waiting until after we rape or murder someone to self reflect.

The reason I ask this question here is because I am afraid of committing murder or suicide if an intimate partner harms me badly enough. Therefore, when I have such thoughts my response is to get away from them and never go back because I need to make sure I don't throw my life away should I act on something like homicidal thoughts. Intimate relationships appear to be the most likely scenario for a murder or rape committed by a civilian.

That said, I would like to explore what would make us murder an intimate partner. There are even cases of professional judges committing the murder of an intimate partner. One of them involved a drunken argument leading to murder. Obviously we should avoid using alcohol to escape our problems as that commonly leads to rape and murder.

When I had homicidal thoughts they were originally toward family members who were drug addicts. They would steal my money to feed their addiction while yelling death threats at my mother. I became afraid of my homicidal thoughts and instead moved in with a relative. However, the homicidal thoughts came up again because of my older sister. She would spread lies about me, badger me for hours, and humiliate me while other family members shut me down. Humiliation is a typical pattern in intimate partner homicide and it appears to be relevant in cases of infidelity. I can't have a relationship with my family and I'm trying to leave because I can't talk to them without unacceptable risk. When combined with withdrawal from antidepressants, I felt like I was losing control as I was overwhelmed with this rage.

In terms of intimate partners, I noticed that oftentimes infidelity leads to homicide. However, it was never particularly obvious to me why this would cause homicidal rage. I instead think of it as although I am distraught and heart broken, this person loves this other man and would be happier with them. Therefore I would tell them good bye and let them be with who they love even if it hurts. I therefore consider cheating a minor offense, but not something I would endorse because of the betrayal of trust. It looks like most people who commit murder or suicide are typically overwhelmed in the moment by grief and they are overestimating the harm caused by act such that some consider cheating to be worse than murder. I don't see myself committing murder over infidelity.

The philosophy I have for committing murder is along the following lines.

If this person has harmed me so badly that they have made my life unlivable and intolerable, then the consequences of my actions become irrelevant. The goal in murder is not to get away with it, but rather to ensure mutual destruction knowing there will be no victory. If one is willing to accept the consequences of life in prison, then they would have from their point what feels like a justified murder. (Of course this is a bad idea, but it would make sense for a murderer to think this way. We should avoid this.)

I noticed that distrust of the legal system overlaps with becoming a criminal. The idea is that if you are going to get in trouble even if you are innocent, then going to prison for being bad doesn't register in the same way anymore. This is also why I felt that I would be more likely to murder someone if they framed me for things I didn't do such as by stealing my social security number and identity while making my life unlivable. Mutually assured destruction would be appealing if I can at least take them out with me. I have been a victim of frame ups and set ups before such as an attempt to frame me for kidnapping and a trafficking scenario because of my father.

Presently no modern legal system has a satisfactory answer for frame ups and corrupted evidence implicating someone innocent. Preventing murder would require improving trust in the legal system. Otherwise the threat of going to prison loses meaning.

In what scenarios would you murder an intimate partner? 

Cheating? (Common, but I wouldn't)

Rape? (I've seen cases like these, not sure)

A frame up? (More likely in my opinion)

Identity theft? (More likely in my opinion)

Wanting their life insurance? (Unlikely but documented)

Domestic abuse: physical, emotional, or sexual? (I felt it in my family)

Humiliation? (I felt it in my family)

Spreading lies and ruining your reputation? (I felt it in my family)

Cutting off your penis? (More likely in my opinion)

I would like to mention that I suspect false rape accusations are typically in the form of blackmail. We would not be able to measure the prevalence of this tactic if it is designed to enforce silence. I don't trust the statistics regarding how often women lie about rape. I don't think it can be reliably measured without making a lot of assumptions about how it works.

In most scenarios I would leave, fearing what I would become if I commit murder. I would also sometimes feel suicidal because of the harm caused by such relationships. This makes me afraid of relationships because of the harm that comes from them. I prefer to front load trust building before starting a relationship, but most people prefer trust building throughout a relationship. I end up creating barriers to intimacy because of my fear of harming someone or being harmed by them.

If I believe my life is intolerable regardless of the consequences, then it would feel easier to justify murder across various scenarios. 

My last question is that if you find a scenario in which you would want to murder an intimate partner, then would you want to stop yourself? What would make you reconsider or abandon the murder? What would be the advantage of living a life you believe to be unjust and intolerable?

I wonder, in the event that an intimate partner stole my social security number and framed me for things I didn't do, then what would be the reason for not murdering them if the outcome is that I will go to prison regardless? Why would I want to live a life of being in prison constantly and having no path forward while this person benefits from my suffering? If the legal system fails people in situations like these, then would I want at least the satisfaction of having this person dead?

I'm honestly not sure why I wouldn't choose murder or suicide in the event that the legal system fails me due to being framed. I'm not sure why I would surrender to this outcome and suffer endlessly regardless. Why not murder this person? Can you explain your reasoning as to why you would or wouldn't murder an intimate partner across these scenarios?

One example is that a spiteful intimate partner could plant drugs in your car so you get arrested should the cops pull you over. This is one way an intimate partner could realistically frame you and get away with it.

[Spiral]

People who are a serious treat to me or my family. When other options are unavailable/exhausted. Luckily never happened to far

I’m not prone to revenge however.

Edited 4 hours ago by Spiral

[Olaf]

@trenton never in my life have I seriously considered murdering someone, so that this is even a thing makes you need to do some serious healing work with your own pain. You can be mad at someone, sure, but to want to take someones life is not something that should come up at all, not seriously. This is very aggressive and you got to think where did this aggression come from? What hurt me so much in my life that I want to even consider that? Because if you have even a little compassion in your heart for another human, it would in my eyes be impossible to actually seriously consider that. Also stop watching all these crime bullshit shows what are poison to your mind, news, crime shows, all of this is probably only reinforcing those thoughts, instead spend time working on the pain and rage that made you want to act out in these ways and do letting go work on them. Learn to have compassion for others, because a little bit of compassion, realising that everyone is one, everything is God, will make you not ever want to harm a human in such a way. Often times rage and anger are just stored up emotions, so you need to look into those emotions, do something with those emotions if you don't want to be a cry baby then go to the gym or if you don't care about being a cry baby go to therapy or do inner healing work. I don't belief you will always have these thoughts and the need to act on them, also consider how seriously do you think of acting on them, because maybe it is just an idea that you would do it, but you wouldn't seriously do it. Anyways, good luck on your healing journey, I hope you can see that everyone is human and therefor has its own right to live, how annoying they might be.  

[Ulax]

No matter what happens to me I will aim up.

So unless it is absolutely necessary to protect myself or others, I will not murder anyone.

Edit: I missed that you said you had serious concerns about that worry. Given that I would also add I seriously recommend getting professional help with this. Work with a therapist who knows about CPTSD and narcissistic abuse. There are too many therapists naive about the reality of evil.

Jordan Peterson's talk about the story of Job whilst on Theo Von's podcast is also very helpful.

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

@trenton never in my life have I seriously considered murdering someone, so that this is even a thing makes you need to do some serious healing work with your own pain. You can be mad at someone, sure, but to want to take someones life is not something that should come up at all, not seriously. This is very aggressive and you got to think where did this aggression come from? What hurt me so much in my life that I want to even consider that? Because if you have even a little compassion in your heart for another human, it would in my eyes be impossible to actually seriously consider that. Also stop watching all these crime bullshit shows what are poison to your mind, news, crime shows, all of this is probably only reinforcing those thoughts, instead spend time working on the pain and rage that made you want to act out in these ways and do letting go work on them. Learn to have compassion for others, because a little bit of compassion, realising that everyone is one, everything is God, will make you not ever want to harm a human in such a way. Often times rage and anger are just stored up emotions, so you need to look into those emotions, do something with those emotions if you don't want to be a cry baby then go to the gym or if you don't care about being a cry baby go to therapy or do inner healing work. I don't belief you will always have these thoughts and the need to act on them, also consider how seriously do you think of acting on them, because maybe it is just an idea that you would do it, but you wouldn't seriously do it. Anyways, good luck on your healing journey, I hope you can see that everyone is human and therefor has its own right to live, how annoying they might be.  

This perspective can only come from someone who has not experienced a certain level of evil in their life. Serious vengeance is a very understandable impulse given the level of brutality some experience at the hands of another. 

Acting on that impulse is a very different question though. One I only endorse in necessary situations.

I detest this labelling of 'cry baby' you give as well. It's cruel and callous.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Ulax

[Majed]

@trenton Eh yo man wtf??? You should consult a psychiatrist it's not normal to have homicidal impulses and thoughts. 

This is if you want a purely secular solution. 

If you want a religious solution: 

Consult a priest, murder is a serious spiritual offense in most religions. Having homicidal impulses isn't productive at all, neither materially or spiritually. It's purely demonic and evil. 

Follow the 10 commandments my friend. Thou shalt not kill. This is needed in your case. Get back to God, the father and pray for these thoughts to go away. 

I don't know how severe your condition is.

Depending on how serious your thoughts become maybe you need a chemical balance in your brain. Or maybe you're just morally bankrupt due to lack of spiritual and religious belief. 

I recommend you try both religion and science (psychiatric intervention and medicine), see which one works better. 

Best of luck! And don't murder anybody. Peace ✌️.

[trenton]

46 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@trenton Also stop watching all these crime bullshit shows what are poison to your mind, news, crime shows, all of this is probably only reinforcing those thoughts, instead spend time working on the pain and rage that made you want to act out in these ways and do letting go work on them.

You made a wrong assumption. I don't watch crime shows.

The reason I know this is because my father was a gangster. I also ended up hospitalized from antidepressants that made it worse. While in the hospital, I met other patients with similar experiences. They explained their homicidal and suicidal thoughts to me. They were also well educated in criminology because they were trying to have compassion for fathers who traffic their own children or rape them.

I was also trying to have compassion for such people. I now understand the psychology of evil very well and I know why men become rapists, but the research on female rapists is incomplete and less studied. 

[trenton]

Interesting data.

So far nobody would commit murder under any circumstances. It looks like for most people this is a moral absolute.

[Spiral]

@trenton It’s quite unpleasant, it’s physically damaging for instance. Not to mention a lot of effort if you intent to avoid prison

[Majed]

7 minutes ago, trenton said:

Interesting data.

So far nobody would commit murder under any circumstances. It looks like for most people this is a moral absolute.

Dude it's not normal to have these thoughts. Please understand. You're like arguing for why shouldn't i go naked on the streets while whispering to myself. It's not normal. From a secular perspective it is a mental health imbalance. 

From a religious/christian worldview this is pure evil, a demonic possession, leading you to hell. 

You gotta learn to control yourself from commiting evil. I don't know what your lifestyle is like so that you think commiting murder can be okay under some circumstances. 

Both the secular doctors and the religious fundamentalists disagree with you. 

I recommend a psychiatrist as well as becoming more religious and developing faith in God. See which one will work out for you, if not a combination of both, which i think will be the solution.

[Ulax]

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Ulax

[Jannes]

@trenton What keeps you with your family? What resources do you have to get out of this situation? 

[Jannes]

If I am pinched against a wall and murder seems like my only escape I would probably do it. I definitely felt like I wanted to get a big revenge in my life before but never to the extent of murder I think. Moreso humiliating them or something.

Probably most likely in an immediate life threatening situation where my animal brain just takes over and goes nuts. 

[Olaf]

1 hour ago, trenton said:

You made a wrong assumption. I don't watch crime shows.

The reason I know this is because my father was a gangster. I also ended up hospitalized from antidepressants that made it worse. While in the hospital, I met other patients with similar experiences. They explained their homicidal and suicidal thoughts to me. They were also well educated in criminology because they were trying to have compassion for fathers who traffic their own children or rape them.

I was also trying to have compassion for such people. I now understand the psychology of evil very well and I know why men become rapists, but the research on female rapists is incomplete and less studied. 

yes if your father was a gangster then you might think these things are normal. So the path towards becoming more conscious is realising none of this was normal. I am sorry for the circumstances you grew up in, but you have to come to realise what normal is in a conscious sense. Becoming more conscious, means to become more empathetic and compassionate. Think of the spiral dynamic stages as an example, you grew up in a quite lower spiral dynamic stage environment, where all of this crime was normalised, to develop yourself you have to go to the next stage, which might be blue or or orange. You can't live like a gangster and develop yourself, you can't think a gangster life is normal and develop yourself, you can't think that this is how life is for everyone and that this is how life is supposed to be, develop beyond the stage of your enviroment, which might feel lonely, but it will leave all this toxicity that belongd with this lower stage behind. And what you will realise is that there are many people that are more developed and are not gangster and that don't think killing and stealing and all of that is normal. Then you might have compassion for your family, but never want to see them or almost never, that is okay. Maybe this anger to your family is telling you to get away from them if they are an actual threat to your life. I might have compassion for a killer or abuser, but I am smart enough to stay away as far as possible from such a person. Love without boundaries for yourself is toxicity. I will love from a very far distance. 

[Olaf]

@Ulax I thought I would speak his language as he comes probably from a "tough" background. I would never use cry baby, but in this instance I thought it would be useful.

[Ulax]

4 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Ulax I thought I would speak his language as he comes probably from a "tough" background. I would never use cry baby, but in this instance I thought it would be useful.

I understand

[trenton]

Guys, appealing to biblical morality isn't helpful. The Old Testament not only includes the ten commandments, but also ancient marriage laws. This includes marry the rapist laws in the book of Deuteronomy.

https://bibleproject.com/bible/niv/deuteronomy/22/

 

If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

28: If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29: he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives

If we apply biblical morality consistently, then if I rape your daughter, she has to marry me. The problem with the ten commandments argument is that it is cherry picking.

The Bible just as easily justifies murdering an intimate partner who cheats on you. 

[Olaf]

@trenton No I don't agree with the bible either it is bullshit, but if we look specifically at the stage you are coming from, which is kinda stage red society, then stage blue would be a level above, which is more about God and praying to God and being moralistic, so you might have to do that for sometime, I had a stage where I went to church and listened to sunday service and it actually helped me a bit in that time that I needed it, even tho I found it a bit crap, I always still had a connection with God so praying to God isn't that crazy if you are spiritual. Till you get to stage orange which is about material success and then towards green which is more rebellion against capitalism, to yellow which is systems thinking and then purple "enlightened" stage. 

[Majed]

@trenton I gave you both a secular and a christian solution. You choose whatever you want. 

Any worldview has pros and cons. Even secular ones. If secularism was true as a worldview, secular people would all be wise, successful and happy, which is just not the case. 

The christian worldview has its merits. 

Plus what you quoted is cherry picking because christianity preceded secularism, hence you can't apply modern standards of morality to christianity. Christianity still has good insights in relation to human dignity and the sanctity of human life.

[Elliott]

It's really good you're asking this, something is really hurting you deep down. You should not be in relationships while like this.

I would never hurt someone I ever cared about, other than for physical defense. I would let them get me sent to prison, I would rather be hurt than hurt them.

Edited 20 minutes ago by Elliott

[Ulax]

49 minutes ago, trenton said:

Guys, appealing to biblical morality isn't helpful. The Old Testament not only includes the ten commandments, but also ancient marriage laws. This includes marry the rapist laws in the book of Deuteronomy.

https://bibleproject.com/bible/niv/deuteronomy/22/

 

If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

28: If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29: he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives

If we apply biblical morality consistently, then if I rape your daughter, she has to marry me. The problem with the ten commandments argument is that it is cherry picking.

The Bible just as easily justifies murdering an intimate partner who cheats on you. 

The job story I recommend as a useful story. Forget the religious part of it.

I'm not religious

Edited 10 minutes ago by Ulax