Challenging Leo on women

[Alexop]

I stopped theorising about attraction. Waste of time. Go out, laugh, joke, Inspire, lead, be powerful in a healthy way, and that's it. Find friends who mastered this and emulate them. 

Those who fail at it care too much. And women smell that weakness, that loneliness, that desperation. Attraction theory is more like learning how to be a normal man, who goes out and can socialize. Lol

Edited yesterday at 08:33 AM by Alexop

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Make sure that that’s not only you.

From my experience, women love to go after higher level guys than they are, in general.

It's definitely a common pattern for women to be uninterested in getting a guy who's more physically attractive than her.

That said, there are women who might go seeking for a guy who's more physically attractive than themselves if they have a meaning associated with it like, "Because this hot guy likes me, that means something good about me."

That's just not something I can relate to. And I suspect that most women tend to relate to men's looks in a similar way to the way I do.

Women generally look for their looks-match (and women are naturally prettier than their male looks-match). So, that enables her to be the peacock in the relationship. And this creates the Masculine/Feminine polarity I was speaking of.

[Miguel1]

@Emerald I agree with you if you are purely talking looks.

But you said ”punching above his weight.” This can mean as a whole, sexual value.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

@Emerald I agree with you if you are purely talking looks.

But you said ”punching above his weight.” This can mean as a whole, sexual value.

I'm specifically talking about looks.

[MuadDib]

On 10/09/2026 at 1:35 PM, Emerald said:

Is that a picture of you in 10th grade?

To be honest, my goth times were more fun than dark. It was a very whimsical time.

It's a senior photo actually, my mistake.

I must have had some sophisticated makeup on, because I had 11/10 "stay away from me" acne until my early 20's that is well hidden here.

[Miguel1]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm specifically talking about looks.

That explains why I struggle to get hot girls 

No but it’s true, I know my looks and because of that I find most girls not ”worthy” of my looks, and they can sense that.

Edited 3 hours ago by Miguel1

[BlessedLion]

21 hours ago, Alexop said:

Sorry for not contributing here. I dont have the patience you guys have, theorising the shit out of the subject.

Hahah no sweat, Emerald and I are going pretty deep into the nuances of this, my head hurts too. 

 

21 hours ago, Alexop said:

Dudes, attraction is easy. There are guys who did not read one sentence about attraction and still attract all the girls. Attraction is easy, it is relationships which are complicated.

Attraction is about power dynamics, charisma, social skills, showing up where you should show up. Boom.

It's easy once you get it, but for many guys this is more difficult than rocket science. You are not appreciating how difficult attraction is for most guys. If it was as easy as you are saying, we wouldn't have a bunch of 25 year old virgins today.

[BlessedLion]

21 hours ago, Alexop said:

I stopped theorising about attraction. Waste of time. Go out, laugh, joke, Inspire, lead, be powerful in a healthy way, and that's it. Find friends who mastered this and emulate them. 

Those who fail at it care too much. And women smell that weakness, that loneliness, that desperation. Attraction theory is more like learning how to be a normal man, who goes out and can socialize. Lol

I think learning attraction theory can help guys really figure out some low hanging fruits, obvious stuff, and it does go pretty deep. I like studying it solely for it's own sake, i find it fascinating. If you get the right material it's definitely not a waste of time and can be pretty mind blowing. 

[BlessedLion]

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

Joe, who is more of a match to Sarah than Tom is, is really interested in Sarah. And because Sarah knows how to sort guys from consideration who aren't compatible with her and who aren't interested in her for anything serious, she's naturally uninterested and turned off by Tom because he doesn't recognize her beauty... and thus she makes space in her life for Joe who does see her as beautiful and wants to build a life with her.

The point is, that there are zero women that exist in the world who are unable to turn the head of a great guy. It's just a matter of being attracted to your own looks-match... and most people are.

Fine. But because women are more attracted to internal qualities, i can't help but think Joe is less of a great option. If Joe spent a decade building his confidence, wealth, status and social skills, he might have been sleeping with women who are way hotter than Sarah, but since he didn't, Sarah is the best option he can get.

 

If Sarah doesn't care about confidence, status, financial stability, social skills, charisma, then good for her, this works out then.

 

But this just re-circles our conversation and I think it's clear which hill each of us wants to die on. 

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

But my point still stands that beauty makes it more challenging to sort through low-quality, extractive options. 

Why do women obsess, compete, and do everything in their power to become more beautiful then? 

 

I think that any man who has put a ton of time and energy into building himself and his life is going to want a beautiful woman by his side, doesn't mean she also can't be a great match chemistry and internally too.

 

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

It would be like being with a woman who's a lot stronger than you. She may be a specimen of a woman and attractive in her own right. But she's probably going to make you feel less Masculine. And it may be a turn off.

Idk , i don't really mind dating strong women. It doesn't intimidate me, it's kinda hot actually, only if they have a big ego about it and use it to devalue my ideas and work, then it's no problem. If i can still share my life purpose work with her and she is interested, admiring, and curious that's all i care about. Let's crush life together! 

But yeah if she is like trying to out-compete me or one-up me or any of that masculine type energy then i am out. But i want to date a woman with a mission and purpose and her own mastery. I also do want her to admire my mind. 

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

Similarly, being with a very pretty man for an average or below-average looking woman will make the woman feel less Feminine. And that's just a turn-off.

I think if Brad Pitt wanted to date a 4, she would have no problem with that. But maybe i'm wrong. This idea of women wanting less attractive men than them is new to me.

 

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, women are usually slightly looks-hypogamous if anything... whilst being hypergamous with things like age, height, and strength. 

Men in contrast are looks-hypergamous... whist being hypogamous with age, height, and strength.

Interesting

 

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, it's important not to apply your own looks-hypergamy towards women. Looks are important to women. But there is such a thing as a man that's too pretty to feel attracted to.

Fair enough, if that's true, I can see how i'd be projecting my bias onto that dynamic. 

 

23 hours ago, Emerald said:

But real relationships don't operate like a transaction. 

Are you sure about that? 

Maybe it's not as cartoonish as Hot Trophy Wife gives sex, Rich Billionare gives money- but most relationships are some form of transaction and economics. Not saying Love isn't real or at play but it's certainly more conditional than most will admit and if the conditions of the promised transaction are violated, the love goes away. It really is like a form of business negotiation, just without the formal paperwork, but lots of informal unspoken agreements and terms. 

 

On 9/10/2026 at 2:37 PM, Emerald said:

Have you ever loved a woman before? 

Of course, many. But i never fall into desperation , neediness, or putting up with low quality behavior just to prove that she is my beloved. There was a Brazilian woman i loved more than life itself, and she crossed a certain line, i ended up blocking her immediately and not opening that door again for years (which was a mistake re-opening anyway).

I have no problem ending things with a woman who is acting out of line. To me, this is the grounds for a respectful and powerful relationship. I don't want her to be needy for me either, if she's not enjoying it any more, I would hope that she would be non-needy enough to leave me. I don't find pushing through or forcing a relationship that isn't working to be endearing in any way and I'd rather just be alone if that's that case. I will not tolerate certain things and whether she is my beloved or not, there is conditions on the love. I know that goes against modern unconditional love ideals but i don't care. 

 

On 9/10/2026 at 2:37 PM, Emerald said:

Similarly, it's probably a turn-on if you're stronger than a woman because it makes you feel Masculine... but a turn-off if she's stronger than you as it makes you feel emasculated.

Yeah, i mean if this comes down to leadership in the relationship then i'd agree. I have no problem with her being strong, but if she is stubborn and challenging me on everything then i don't want it. I need to be able to lead in a relationship.

On 9/10/2026 at 2:37 PM, Emerald said:

Like, an average-looking guy (that I'm interested in) who's slightly overwhelmed by his attraction for me is so hot. I like seeing that vulnerability to his own instincts play out in relation to the way I look.

But a modelesque guy who can't recognize my beauty might as well be an old woman or a mannequin in my eyes. There's just no polarity there... as it doesn't make me feel Feminine and beautiful.

And if there were zero men who found me attractive, I just wouldn't ever feel turned on by anyone as sex just wouldn't be interesting or exciting.

That's why women are generally seeking their looks-match or are slightly looks-hypogamous... because it's a lot more arousing to be with a guy who knows he's punching slightly above his weight.

That's interesting and does make sense. I've just never heard any women talk about this before. 

[Alexop]

44 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

It's easy once you get it, but for many guys this is more difficult than rocket science. You are not appreciating how difficult attraction is for most guys. If it was as easy as you are saying, we wouldn't have a bunch of 25 year old virgins today.

Yes I agree. But it mostly is teaching them how to be normal humans. To no be autistic and be able to have fun in social contexts. And yea, some technical details of course. But I am so tired about this subject. It is discussed so much and still most people who discuss it all day still suck. 

The problem is more systemic than "guys suck nowadays".

1. Social media and dating apps give women waaay to much power. Guys would also abuse that power if they had it. Mostly by sleeping with the whole city.

2. Social environment is shit. People don't meet anymore, rarely make new friends, are individualistic as fuck, do not dare to be vulnerable and warm. Everyone is a fucking snowflake that disappears at the first conflict. Of course not everyone.

3. Economic and cultural environment changed. Women have their own money now. They don't need a man to help them survive anymore. Therefore the culture changed in the way that there is much less social pressure on women to find a man and be a good little wife.

Especially the latter, exposed the underdevelopment in men..women had no choice before. Now they have and if men don't match expectations, they are ignored. I think we had lots creepy and disgusting men back in the days, but they still could lock in a woman because the times permitted them that luxury.

Edited 2 hours ago by Alexop

[BlessedLion]

23 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Make sure that that’s not only you.

From my experience, women love to go after higher level guys than they are, in general.

That's what i usually see as well. Again, what woman wouldn't be stoked on dating Brad Pitt?

[BlessedLion]

1 minute ago, Alexop said:

1. Social media and dating apps give women waaay to much power. Guys would also buse that power if they had it. Mostly by sleeping with the whole city.

2. Social environment is shit. People don't meet anymore, rarely make new friends, are individualistic as fuck, do not dare to be vulnerable and warm. Everyone is a fucking snowflake that disappears at the first conflict. Of course not everyone.

3. Economic and cultural environment changed. Women have their own money now. They don't need a man to help them survive anymore. Therefore the culture changed in the way that there is much less social pressure on women to find a man and be a good little wife.

That's true and it's important to acknowledge these very real factors. It's never been harder to date and mate. 

However, in my eyes, that makes learning attraction all the more important. Most of my female friends have pretty much fully opted out of casual sex or even dating, or have serious avoidant tendencies- beautiful young women, who haven't had intimacy in sometimes 1 year+. So it's like the Red Queen effect (if you are familiar with that) but you have to just keep up with the changing times and environment (or you don't get sex) and to me that means really understanding and implementing attraction skills. 

 

This month alone I exchanged sexual energy with 3 very beautiful women, women who get 2/3 approaches per day, one was a model. I don't share that to brag but to mention that had i not studied deeper levels of attraction theory , this might not have happened. Personally, i realized many low hanging fruits that i had while studying attraction (and going out into the feild) in the last 4 months, helped me fix those. It's definitely not as simple as "just go socialize more" But yeah if you just sit around theorizing it will get you nowhere i agree.

 

4 minutes ago, Alexop said:

Especially the latter, exposed the underdevelopment in men..women had no choice before. Now they have and if men don't match expectations, they are ignored. I think we had lots creepy and disgusting men back in the days, but they still could lock in a woman because the times permitted them that luxury.

Again, i don't see the problem here, it's making men develop past just being mysognistic losers that women have to put up with because they have no other choice. I see it as a welcomed challenge to better myself to a point that a woman chooses me not because she needs me like some 1950s desperate housewife, but because she chooses for me my qualities and development. It's a double edged sword though because these days you truly have be outstanding to get consistent success with women, and many men don't have the time energy and money to do that level of inner work. 

[BlessedLion]

17 minutes ago, Alexop said:

Social environment is shit. People don't meet anymore, rarely make new friends, are individualistic as fuck, do not dare to be vulnerable and warm. Everyone is a fucking snowflake that disappears at the first conflict

The flakiness is annoying but i feel like that's nothing new, especially for women. I find the delicacy of the attraction process to be wildly annoying because the smallest mistep will sabotage the process, especially if you are talking about women who have a lot of options and attention. With an uglier woman there is more wiggle room for fucking ups. But then all again, all the more reason to culitvate mastery and have fun with it I guess.

[BlessedLion]

If the whole thing on women wanting a guy uglier than them is true, then that means looksmaxxing and men obsessing over their looks is actually backfiring which i find low key hilarious. 

[Alexop]

@BlessedLion yes it kind of is like that. Sadly this what it has to be done. Learning how to get a woman has become like learning any other skill. Just follow a specific training, rules, steps. 

However attraction is very different from relationship skills. Imo a long term relationship will really show your real level of development. Attraction can be aped, because it happens quick and you can hide your shitty parts. but not being a good partner. But yea, without being able to attract a woman, you cannot have a relationship 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Alexop said:

Yes I agree. But it mostly is teaching them how to be normal humans. To no be autistic and be able to have fun in social contexts. And yea, some technical details of course. But I am so tired about this subject. It is discussed so much and still most people who discuss it all day still suck. 

The problem is more systemic than "guys suck nowadays".

1. Social media and dating apps give women waaay to much power. Guys would also abuse that power if they had it. Mostly by sleeping with the whole city.

2. Social environment is shit. People don't meet anymore, rarely make new friends, are individualistic as fuck, do not dare to be vulnerable and warm. Everyone is a fucking snowflake that disappears at the first conflict. Of course not everyone.

3. Economic and cultural environment changed. Women have their own money now. They don't need a man to help them survive anymore. Therefore the culture changed in the way that there is much less social pressure on women to find a man and be a good little wife.

Especially the latter, exposed the underdevelopment in men..women had no choice before. Now they have and if men don't match expectations, they are ignored. I think we had lots creepy and disgusting men back in the days, but they still could lock in a woman because the times permitted them that luxury.

This is about where I sit on this topic. Well said. Dating apps and social media in particular can fuck off. 

It tend to view it as green flag when someone isn't on them.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Very difficult issue though - adapt to a horrid courtship environment and potentially  learn maladaptive relational strategies that can translate to poor relationship skills. 

Previously when apps weren't a thing, there was more opportunity to learn many of these relational skills though socialisation. And real, face to face feedback from others would give you something to reflect against that would encourage the fostering and growth of good, healthy social dynamics. You didn't tend bring along maladaptive habits from a digital environment - because it wasn't as big of a thing. Think gen z stare 

[Schizophonia]

Women desire masculinity in one form or another, that is to say the phallus in the Lacanian sense, that is to say power.

This manifests in specific attributes (beauty, physique, money, social circle, humor etcetc) but also and notably in an attitude that betrays a subjective perception of possessing power.

I make a joke if I feel like it, I’m serious if I feel like it, I go here if I feel like it, I come over to you if I feel like it if it’s rational, and so on; it is a dictatorship.

Whenever you "force things", more or less unconsciously out of fear of being abandoned (because you are transferring the phallus/power to the other person!), you come across as less charismatic and attractive, and more of a "simp" as the young say.

Have you noticed? When you crack jokes promptly it's funny; when it's forced it's crap. 

Because the underlying meaning behind the "good joke" versus "bad joke" divide or, moving beyond humor, the distinction between being charismatic and uncharismatic, attractive and unattractive (generally speaking, for a man) is the phallus: the question of whether I am doing what I want, because I have the power.

Of course the perception of what constitutes the phallus ultimately depends on the individual woman; an MMA fighter who looks like a gorilla might be highly phallic yet fail to appeal to women who are looking for something else.

But don't just give in to your masculinity to please others  isn't attractive and you wouldn't want to be attractive for something you aren't anyway; so you might as well just surrender to its dictatorship.

Edited 1 minute ago by Schizophonia