Challenging Leo on women

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

if I wasn't 100 lbs and looking perfectly that I wouldn't find a guy who was really interested in me beyond the bare-bones of the kind of attention that I was getting.

That's the mistake that I would agree with. Thinking the guy is only interested in sex. But as Natasha mentioned too , the nuance is the sexual attraction as a bridge then you can discern if he has better qualities or is interested in you as a person or you have chemistry or whatever. 

 

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, a lot of women (especially women who have self-esteem issues and a minimal understanding about men's romantic/sexual motivations) will put all her effort into trying to impress men with her looks. But she sets herself for failure because there's always a more beautiful woman... and women who attract a partner based on their looks are fungible and easily replaceable with a younger or more attractive model.

Like I said, if you live by the sword... you die by the sword. 

Sure i would agree, if a couple forms solely on the basis of some kind of exchange (like Orion Tarabhn would advocate) of Resoucres/Status for Beauty , then she will easily leave him for the next higher status guy and he will divorce her for the younger model, which there will always be, if they don't grow and connect on any other qualities. And obvious as this may seem, many people do use this strategy and yes, it's unwise, because it's almost like an unconscious non-transparent negotiation that has happened "you be my trophy wife arm candy, i'll put you in Benz"

 

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

And if you're a very beautiful woman, and 99% of the attention you get is just guys wanting to have a hot girl attached to them... that's a liability. And that very beautiful woman is going to have to sort ruthlessly to find a great guy who's really into her specifically. 

Like, all women are having to find needles in haystacks to get a good partner. And the more beautiful the woman is, the bigger the haystack is that she has to sort through. 

Yes, I'd agree, on the basis that she doesn't have dsicernment skills

 

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

If a woman defines quality as the guy is good-looking or wealthy or high status or other superficial qualities

Is it superficial though? I think we should be careful about labelling this as superficial. It's like labelling mens attraction to youth, curves, and beauty superficial. I believe we have deep evolutionary wiring for being attracted to these things and if we are honest with ourselves we care deeply about it. If a guy is anxious, not respected by anyone and basically a wimp, then the context for attraction is gone just like how an 90 year old grandma doesn't have a context for attraction. No matter how comitted a guy like that is (or how horny for casual sex a Grandma is) no woman (or man) will want it. 

 

Now I'm not saying every woman is secretly a gold digger, but status and wealth usually equate to character. Think about it. Even if she doesn't care about a rich guy, like a girl in Bali or another Stage Green environment, even a hippie commune living off-grid. The higher desired males will be the ones with emotional stability, intelligence, social skills, leadership qualities, strength, resiliance, passion, spine, etc - it just so happens in the modern world that equates to wealth so i almost feel like actual money is just an indicator of a mans competence because usually rich men (espeically self-made) don't just get there without having seriously powerful qualities like that. But equating money to strong internal characteristics is problematic in a tons of ways that i don't agree with.

 

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

That said, I still like to look pretty. But that's more of an identity thing, as I want to look powerful. And beauty is power in many facets of life. 

But beauty has ZERO power to assist women in finding a great relationship. It can even be a liability if the beautiful women isn't sharp as a tack with her ability to sort wheat from chaff.

We will just have to agree to disagree here then. I don't disagree with you about the discernment skills needing to be sharp as a tack for women, if i've gotten anything from this exchange it's the importance of that for women, so thanks for that. But I refuse to admit that attraction and beauty has 0 use for women, even in finding their ideal husband. My logic is more beauty = more potential mates = more high quality filtering = more likelihood to land the best option for her specifically. 

 

Kinda like house shopping i'd rather have 1,000 houses to sort from to find my dream home than 52. 

Edited Sunday at 09:45 AM by BlessedLion

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

But if a woman defines quality based on how deep the connection is, how good the chemistry is, how compatible he is, his level of investment, and how much she admires him as a whole person

A lot of this comes down to high status traits, it's not just some random thing, and his level of investment will likely correlate to her beauty and how attracted he is to her. If a woman was a fan of say, Led Zeppelin, and went on a date with Robert Plant she would likely delude herself to think they had incredible chemistry, he was totally invested (or at least could be in the future if she slept with him enough times), and of course she admires him, and that they have a super deep connection and speak each others langauge. Why? Because he is high status based on her values. Unless he totally bombed the date, there is little he could do to mess that up. 

 

Similar to how a guy will do the same shit if he is a 50 year old divorcee and goes on a date with a 20 year old OF model. He will walk away feeling like they are soul mates. 

 

This happens all the time. 

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

as that is low-quality male attention.

Why is attention from being attractive automatically "low quality men" 

I almost feel like you are swinging the pendellum too far, maybe because you used to think "Men only want me for my beauty, that is my only form of value in a relationship" (which i agree is incorrect) to this now "beauty means nothing and has no value and is even a liability"

I think Natasha's pov is more level-headed tbh

 

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

Secondly... what were men doing before pick-up became so mainstream?

I'm old enough to answer that. They were just frequently socializing with women... and they'd get a girlfriend that way. 

Or they'd go out to a club/bar/party and dance up on a girl... and sometimes they'd make out or hook up.

They didn't need to learn all these weird paradigms... and a bunch of strategies. They were just being social. And the outcome of socializing is that women will sometimes be interested in you. 

I agree, pre-pick up time was much more innocent and "human" we could say. But i'd argue on some level the dynamcis were still at play. It's like how people use grammar without consciously knowing all the rules of grammar. These same dynamics of beatuy, status, were very much in play, even being goofy at a club and dancing up on a girl. The difference now is these dynamics have been studied and hyper analyzed by some pretty clever minds and men and women are exploiting them for personal gain. That is the red-pill in it's more tactical forms. Orion Tarabahn is the poster child for that shit.

 

16 hours ago, Emerald said:

"Men's challenge is finding water in the desert. Women's challenge is finding drinkable water in a swamp." So, the level of scarcity for men and women is the same.

Yes but some men have a smaller desert and some women have a larger swamp. A larger swamp is likely to have more clean water in it.  

[BlessedLion]

Last thing about the needles and haystacks- it's not like a woman with a smaller haystack somehow has a better ratio of high quality to spam options. She still has to sort out the hay and find the needle. Also, the size of the hay stack should correlate to amount of needles.

 

For example;

young model has 1,000 courters, of those 25 are potentiall solid husbands (2.5%)

90 yo grandma has 100 courters of those 2.5 (round up to 3) are potential solid husbands (2.5%) 

 

It's not like grandma has 100 courters and 25 of them are legit husbands. Or are you saying that they are? 

 

It's not like the guys going for uglier women are somehow more committed and not playing games, they just aren't having success with beautiful women. If it were up to them, they would be on dates with more beautiful women. it's not like out of the goodness of the heart and great character they are talking to 2s and 3s

 

Edited Sunday at 10:13 AM by BlessedLion

[Emerald]

12 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

young model has 1,000 courters, of those 25 are potentiall solid husbands (2.5%)

90 yo grandma has 100 courters of those 2.5 (round up to 3) are potential solid husbands (2.5%) 

The 90-year old grandma is going to have a higher ratio of high quality attention, even if her raw numbers are lower.

What you have to understand is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wants a hot women. And many of them just want higher status among male peers or to feel validated by having an attractive woman attracted to them.

So, we're talking about a young model having 1000 men who are interested in something with her... and 25 of them are genuinely interested in her.

But the grandma has 100 men interested in her... and probably 20 are genuinely interested in her as a person.

There just aren't as many ulterior motive for wanting to court a granny.

So, if Old Joe is bringing Old Betsy flowers, he's probably really interested in her.

But if there's a very attractive 25-year old model... she's going to have a bunch of guy chasing her around for all kinds of ulterior motives, like sex, status among other men, trying to redeem his self-esteem in his own eyes. 

There's no way that the ratio is the same. That's why beauty is a liability that must be compensated for with extremely ruthless sorting, as beauty is like an email inbox of a wealthy person with no spam filter.

[BlessedLion]

@Emerald Key note on this response; i typed responses to different sections you had written. Like "Quoting" them, but the stupid forum crashed and luckily i copied what i had written but there is no responses to what you had said earlier. I hope it still makes sense:


 

A worthy opponent you are Emerald. I appreciate that! I am trying to run your perspective through my mind without my filters and beleifs, but i still struggle with your perspective. 

 

How are we defining "high quality"? I feel like the old grandma is getting the scraps. I see the sentiment of what you are saying but it doesn't align with reality, that is just not the world we live in. If you ever talk to a single woman in her 70s very few of them are actively dating because the options that are left over are just awful. It is very hard to find love again after a certain age- that isn't random. My older female friends are struggling a lot because the options that they have are not (let's just say not "top of the line"). The top of the line options are pursuing young beautiful women. I saw a netflix show about old people dating around and it only lasted one season bc none of the couples ended up together. like 0, and that was only people in their 50s. I have female friends who are less attractive and they definitely just end up settling with unimpressive guys who either treat them poorly or are just kinda wimps. 

 

A young model is going to have a swamp of men sure , but within that swamp is a line of men at their physical and mental peak ready to commit, give her a great life, devote themselves to her and for better or worse treat her like a Queen (the clean water in the swamp). The Granny is really getting better water or a higher swamp to clean water ratio?

If she (the model) is Stage Green, she can marry the yoga teacher who started the school she's at. If she is Stage Orange, she can find a wealthy, intelligent husband who she can pursue her material and success oriented goals with. If she is Stage Blue, she can marry the guy who runs the Church sermons and leads the community. She can still find chemistry and compatibility, and on top of that get resources , status and lifestyle. 

 

Why? Because Men value beauty. The men who can give her the life and pursuits and excitement she wants will not entertain dating her if she is 80. It's not that men only care about beauty, but it is the context for them to start a romantic interest. The Granny stands 0 chance of getting a man like that. 

 

Why is it such a big deal to see a super beautiful woman with a broke loser? Because it veers so far from the norm, it is so rare! Same for seeing a succesful, charismatic, powerful guy with a troll. 

 

In all these examples the model is getting the highest quality men on the market. Women are attracted to this kinda shit, point blank. Again we are looking at the real world and not some ideal. Any woman acting like she doesn't care about a guy having influence, respect, social skills, poise, is lying (imo). 

 

Sure, some narcissist awful men will be in that group but it's not like ugly women are automatically exempt from shitty, bad intentioned guys. They may even be more suseptible to ending up with them because they have less options and are more desperate for the intimacy (like my unattractive friends), whereas a beautiful woman can more easily walk away from bullshit behavior. She has more cards to play.

 

If i was a woman, i would definitely prefer being very beautiful even with all the bullshit that comes with it, and being able to sort out who i want to end up with through a catalog of men pursuing me. I don't think it takes that much intelligence and skill to smarten up with this. It's really just emotional mastery. Beautiful women get incredible experiences, opportunities and special treatment handed to them on a platter, in the fucked up world we live in this is probably an advantage and better overall for most. Sure an uglier woman may get lucky and take that challenge to learn humbleness, wisdom, spirituality , and be geniunely more happy in life etc, but most will just suffer the disadvantages of being ugly. 

 

The young model is going to have healthier, wealthier, stronger, better looking, more socially skilled, more competent options. The Grandma is not getting Prince Charming. I've come to the conclusion your perspective on this particular point is simply wrong. Attractive people have more power in dating and life in general, a young attractive model will have much more negotiation power, optionality and ability to find the best partner for her individual wants and needs. She can basically tell a guy point blank "if you aren't commited, i'm out" whereas an ugly woman will need to sleep with him and get pulled along before having negotiation power, unless she dates down, whereas then she will have the power, but will dating more desperate men, who yeah, might see her as an angel because their only other option is their right hand.  

Sure, the model will have to "Sort through" more "junk" but women are probably pretty good at that anyway.

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

What you have to understand is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry wants a hot women. And many of them just want higher status among male peers or to feel validated by having an attractive woman attracted to them.>

 

I think you underestimate how much men value youth and beauty. Of course, it isn't everything. But as a woman, i feel you have a bias - becuase women value that less. They didn't need to look as much for fertility signals, men did. This is millions of years of evolution in the making, it's not some shallow thing. Men want young beautiful women for it's own sake. The status thing is a factor but much smaller than actually having the woman, they are genuinely just attracted to her for it's own sake and it drives us insane. There's a reason porn is such a massive and addictive industry, it's pure unfiltered female youth and sex, no status symbol in jerking off to porn.

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

But the grandma has 100 men interested in her... and probably 20 are genuinely interested in her as a person.>

 

The body and physical beauty comes with the person, they are a package deal. You can't just seperate the two. These old men are still factoring that in. If she is suddenly an old grandma who is 300 pounds overnight, the men interested in her has now dropped to 5 as great as personality might be. 

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

There just aren't as many ulterior motive for wanting to court a granny.>

 

For an old man, he likely still sees beauty in the granny relative to the people around him and the options he has. Nothing has changed. 

 

The ulterior motive is that the only other option is to die a celibate

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, if Old Joe is bringing Old Betsy flowers, he's probably really interested in her.>

 

Or he is lonely and horny and that is his best relative option. People tend to sort themselves out quite rapidly in the sexual marketplace. And if Old Joe suddenly has a 20 year old model who is similar in personality to Old Betsy interested in him, he is going to start dating the model. And the model can make all sorts of wacky demands that Old Betsy can't. 

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

But if there's a very attractive 25-year old model... she's going to have a bunch of guy chasing her around for all kinds of ulterior motives, like sex, status among other men, trying to redeem his self-esteem in his own eyes. 

There's no way that the ratio is the same. That's why beauty is a liability that must be compensated for with extremely ruthless sorting, as beauty is like an email inbox of a wealthy person with no spam filter.>

 

It sounds nice on paper but is fundamentally disconnected from reality and sexual dynamics, which is a brutal place. But i prefer to look it in the face, painful as it may be sometimes. Idk maybe we just live on different planets but i see it differently and data and real world truths definitely show a different story. Old Granny isn't magically getting a better ratio, it's just adjusted for the men who know their place in the sexual marketplace and what they can realistically get. Again, they aren't going to her by the greatness of their character and sweet hearts. 

 

You are basically saying , Because Granny is ugly, the men who pursue her are doing it from a better place. And because the model is hot she is only getting pursued for her beauty. My argument is that it's relative. The men have the same motives, they are just adjusting for what they think is within their reach. Attraction comes first, liking her personality comes second. The men pursuing Granny likely think they can get something from her that would be impossible to get from the model. 

 

And let's just say you are right.... Granny has a more clean water to swamp ratio, because those men are going to her for reasons that might be unrelated to her attractiveness. But the quality of the clean water is still kinda murky and maybe not even good for her or neccesary.

And that Young Model has a terrible clean water to swamp ratio, becuase every guy in town is pursuing her for her looks, but the clean water is cleaner and she can easily build a dam to surrond herself with the clean water (social circle) and the clean water can offer her a lot of things she needs and wants, like building a family and being supported for that. 

 

Attraction = Power. Period.

 

I ask myself....What would ever make me want to date an ugly woman? And i'd have to say it would be less genuine than if im pursuing a beautiful woman. If im dating a beautiful woman i'm likely more genuine in my interests in a relationship and equal playing feild and her as a person, i'll be more enthusiastic about her needs and bring my best self to the table and be more flexible because we have a more leveled sexual marketplace value, is that superficial? Maybe. But for me to date an ugly woman there would either have to be an amazing sexual chemistry where she never says no (still in my interests) and i would also enjoy having a power advantage in the relationship, that i would exploit if i was a bad guy. Or a grandma if she had some huge inheritance i could benefit from. So the truth is , the intentions are not neccesarily more pure just becuase guys are dating down. I cannot say in ernest i would date a truly ugly woman just because she had a great personality. Plenty of beautiful women fit my compatability and chemistry. I would feel slighted in some way, if i dated an 80 year old grandma it would feel wrong no matter how great our chemistry and compatibility was, i would feel like i was getting the short end of the stick because fundamentally my attraction and sexual marketplace value is much higher than hers. Like buying a Benz for $500. Its a rip off, and on some level we all know this.  And most men would probably agree with this.

 

How many 35 year old millionaires do you see dating 80....no let's even say 50 year old women? Let's look at reality here. Its probaly less than .1 %. There is a sexual market place and goods are exchanged based on their value. A 35 millionaire CEO knows he has a high marketplace value.

 

I would also argue that beautiful women do have filters for spam like a rich guy does with his email. Many of them are unaccesable and locked into social circles and groups that most men can't access. You think Instagram DMs matter or work at all for these women? They have 10,000 unread messages there that will never get opened daily. 

 

I genuinely appreciate the conversation though. And i agree with you that discernment is more important for women than attraction. In fact i see it like this:

Men need to improve their attraction skills (or else they are fucked and no one is coming to save them)
Women need to improve their discernment skills (or else they will get played and tricked and just used for their looks)

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

she's going to have a bunch of guy chasing her around for all kinds of ulterior motives, like sex, status among other men, trying to redeem his self-esteem in his own eyes. >

 

How do you know Old Joe isn't just doing this with the only option he's got? 

 

<12 hours ago, Emerald said:

There's no way that the ratio is the same. That's why beauty is a liability that must be compensated for with extremely ruthless sorting, as beauty is like an email inbox of a wealthy person with no spam filter.>

 

We can all look at examples of women dating a millionaire narccist and getting tricked or fucked over, but there are also plenty of other women who end up living a higher quality of life and in a better situation because they optimized their beauty and locked in a solid man with it. They can use their beauty to find a more compatible, better chemistry option and have more power in the relationship dynamics. More of the ladder too. Women are smart, they learn quickly, and most of them figure it out, it's survival and evolution at work.

 

I get what you are getting at, but to say beauty gives women absolutely no advantage and is even a detriment in the sexual and dating marketplace is wildly false. Like it's so false that i can't believe i'm still talking about it. I think anyone would rather have more options they can sort through than less "more genuine" ones. A young beautiful woman is the most powerful person on earth in a certain sense, and can change her life situation drastically for the better with her beauty, parnership quality included.

 

I can't help but feel like a guy who is going for an uglier woman is doing so because that's his only option, it's not because he sees something special in her. 

 

Overall, i think you are missing a fundamental dynamic. And I think you are more likely to have good chemsitry with an alpha male because they have better social skills, charisma, empathy, etc than a wimpy autistic type guy who will be problematic to live with. That’s usually the options ugly women are left with, they aren’y getting Prince Charming. Not that high status men can't be psychos, but men who have low options aren't except for the same fucked up traits as all of us. 

Whew...my head hurts.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Why is it such a big deal to see a super beautiful woman with a broke loser? Because it veers so far from the norm, it is so rare! 

I've seen that so many times.

Being an attractive woman doesn't guarantee that she's going to have great sorting skills. 

And an attractive woman will need excellent sorting skills.

2 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Overall, i think you are missing a fundamental dynamic. And I think you are more likely to have good chemsitry with an alpha male because they have better social skills, charisma, empathy, etc than a wimpy autistic type guy who will be problematic to live with. That’s usually the options ugly women are left with, they aren’y getting Prince Charming. Not that high status men can't be psychos, but men who have low options aren't except for the same fucked up traits as all of us. 
 

Beauty has no correlation with the quality of the character of the man you end up with.

I know that everything you said seems logical to you, as you're very tuned into women's beauty... and men are very interested in female beauty as the thing that activates the desire for sex.

So, because of that, you're like, "I am interested in women for their appearance. So, that must be what lands a woman a high quality man." 

But beauty is not the right tool for striking a great match.

It's the tool for turning heads... and the character of the men those heads belong to vary significantly.

And that is why sorting is the superior tool.... and many very beautiful women know this especially, because they have to. And once you start thinking your appearance is what will get you a good relationship, that's when you start ending up with losers.

Honestly, go look around at the best couples out there with the best marriages.... and you will find a wide array of different levels of attractiveness.

But the partners will be about the same level of physical attractiveness as one another. 

So, you can find 2s in a great marriage... and you can find 2s in a bad marriage. 

And you can find 10s in a great marriage... and you can find 10s in a bad marriage.

---

Also, I'm from Florida. And there's a huge issue in retirement homes where STDs spread like wildfire because everyone is having sex.

So, if some widowed 70-year old lady is without options, it's probably because she's not socializing.

She may even believe, "I'm not a beautiful young woman anymore. So, no one will be interested."

But then, 80-year-old Delores has Old Joe and Old Bob fighting over her in the retirement community.

----

So, it's important to put your assumptions aside and actually look at the dating/relationship/sexual behaviors of real human people. The reality is that uggos are coupling up all the time. And those are just as likely to be high quality marriages as a relationship between hotties.

 

Edit: I was also just thinking that the things that I (and most women) find satisfying in a marriage/relationship may register as boring to you... as they're not very glamorous or exciting.

I sense that your focus is more on extraordinariness where everyone's hot and sexy and having youthful party experiences or something like that. And hot women will get a TON of attention in those settings. And the more attractive a woman is, the more attention she will get.

But for me, the dynamic that interests me romantically is very ordinary. And that's what most women are keyed into when choosing a husband and potential father for their children.

Edited 23 hours ago by Emerald

[eos_nyxia]

If I'm being honest, >various templates of generic hot, successful guy< has never been my cup of tea. They're just not my type(s). 

Like if they got to know me (if they even cared to), they probably wouldn't mesh with me and vice versa, unless they have some secret side they don't show anyone else (which then comes with its own set of problem).

A guy who other women fight over (specifically where the guy semi-consciously encourages that dynamic)? I experienced a bit of that before, I don't respond to that, not interested.

Whatever he has to offer, I'm not interested. Regardless of how said guy feels about my looks or whatever assumptions that he makes about me based on my looks. In fact if he leads with being a little TOO interested I find it off-putting, even though I'm aware that my appearance matters anyway.  

 

 

 

[LordFall]

8 minutes ago, eos_nyxia said:

If I'm being honest, >various templates of generic hot, successful guy< has never been my cup of tea. They're just not my type(s). 

Like if they got to know me (if they even cared to), they probably wouldn't mesh with me and vice versa, unless they have some secret side they don't show anyone else (which then comes with its own set of problem).

A guy who other women fight over (specifically where the guy semi-consciously encourages that dynamic)? I experienced a bit of that before, I don't respond to that, not interested.

Whatever he has to offer, I'm not interested. Regardless of how said guy feels about my looks or whatever assumptions that he makes about me based on my looks. In fact if he leads with being a little TOO interested I find it off-putting, even though I'm aware that my appearance matters anyway.  

 

 

 

What type of man do you like then? If you had to name 2 celebrities or influencers that appeal to you; who would they be?