Challenging Leo on women

[Emerald]

24 minutes ago, Joshe said:

To me, what seems like casual sex with no strings attached is mostly an unconscious evaluation phase to see if you're someone worth pursuing. And when they figure you don't make the cut, they "casually" part with "I wasn't looking for anything serious, it was just casual fun, no hard feelings".

To me, it's a weird idea for two people to be mutually attracted, repeatedly have sex, spend time together, joke around, become comfortable with each other, anticipate seeing each other multiple times, and that just remains "casual".

Strong immediate sexual attraction + little further interest
→ one-night stand / brief fling.

Sexual attraction + continued interest, but discovers disqualifying characteristics
→ casual arrangement may persist, but he's effectively excluded from the serious-partner category.

Sexual attraction + continued positive discoveries
→ increasing intimacy and attachment → relationship becomes increasingly desirable.

So, if it truly is just casual sex for her, then FWB is basically: "I like having sex with you, but I've already determined that you aren't my ideal"

I'm moreso talking about one-night stands, when I was talking about that "sizable minority of women want casual sex".

It's like... "It's a wild night at this concert/bar/rave/party... and I want to have sex with someone." Many women wouldn't do this. But a sizable minority of women would just to go with the excitement of the party. Probably half of women have done that at some point in their lives.

But I don't think that very many women at all are actually looking for FWB or repeat casual sex or situationships. It's maybe a longterm solution to loneliness or a desire that things will become more serious over time.

The issue is that that doesn't happen with men who are looking for FWB and casual sex. So, a lot of women can end up in a situation/FWB situation and hoping that he develops feelings for her and wants to commit to her. But that hardly ever happens.

So, I tend to find that many men and some women can be open to casual sex on a one-night-stand.

And I find that men tend to like FWB, because it gives him consistent, low-effort, easy-going access to sex and the girlfriend treatment with a woman he's friends with and is physically attracted to... but who he isn't interested in pursuing in any kind of serious romantic way. So, it meets many of his needs without requiring commitment and vulnerability from him, as he's not in love with the woman and he knows he never will be.

But for women in FWB situationships, it's often, "If I like him enough to repeatedly have sex with him, I love him and want to be his partner and I want to be mutually in love." But she may lie to herself because she doesn't want to admit that the dynamic is going nowhere, and say, "FWB is what I'm really looking for. So, I'm totally cool with this." 

So, usually women will not repeatedly have casual sex with a man unless she just loves sex, is very lonely,... or (most often) is wanting something deeper with that particular guy and just hoping the sex means something or that he'll eventually fall for her.

And this is one of the reasons why sorting is VERY important for women. There are a ton of men who would be very open to FWB... and can contently stay for years and years in that dynamic because it meets many of his needs. But there are almost no women who thrive and feel held in that kind of dynamic.

So, it's important to sort out guys who "Aren't interested in putting labels on anything" or who "Aren't looking for anything serious" or any of the other indicators that he's open for FWB but not open for anything deeper.

[Asayake]

21 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm moreso talking about one-night stands, when I was talking about that "sizable minority of women want casual sex".

It's like... "It's a wild night at this concert/bar/rave/party... and I want to have sex with someone." Many women wouldn't do this. But a sizable minority of women would just to go with the excitement of the party. Probably half of women have done that at some point in their lives.

But I don't think that very many women at all are actually looking for FWB or repeat casual sex or situationships. It's maybe a longterm solution to loneliness or a desire that things will become more serious over time.

The issue is that that doesn't happen with men who are looking for FWB and casual sex. So, a lot of women can end up in a situation/FWB situation and hoping that he develops feelings for her and wants to commit to her. But that hardly ever happens.

So, I tend to find that many men and some women can be open to casual sex on a one-night-stand.

And I find that men tend to like FWB, because it gives him consistent, low-effort, easy-going access to sex and the girlfriend treatment with a woman he's friends with and is physically attracted to... but who he isn't interested in pursuing in any kind of serious romantic way. So, it meets many of his needs without requiring commitment and vulnerability from him, as he's not in love with the woman and he knows he never will be.

But for women in FWB situationships, it's often, "If I like him enough to repeatedly have sex with him, I love him and want to be his partner and I want to be mutually in love." But she may lie to herself because she doesn't want to admit that the dynamic is going nowhere, and say, "FWB is what I'm really looking for. So, I'm totally cool with this." 

So, usually women will not repeatedly have casual sex with a man unless she just loves sex, is very lonely,... or (most often) is wanting something deeper with that particular guy and just hoping the sex means something or that he'll eventually fall for her.

And this is one of the reasons why sorting is VERY important for women. There are a ton of men who would be very open to FWB... and can contently stay for years and years in that dynamic because it meets many of his needs. But there are almost no women who thrive and feel held in that kind of dynamic.

So, it's important to sort out guys who "Aren't interested in putting labels on anything" or who "Aren't looking for anything serious" or any of the other indicators that he's open for FWB but not open for anything deeper.

That's insightful and a bit sad, and aligns with what I've seen. I think a lot of pickup & red pill basically preys on women's desire for  a long term relationship, safety, a future, a wedding, a marriage, etc. If you pay attention a lot of pickup is about making the girl fall in love with you basically, and a lot of guys go in with the intention that as long as they themselves just want a one night stand or a FWB and get what they want, it's totally okay as long as the girl doesn't say not. But how it often seems to play out is morally wrong just like getting an intern to work on your business under the spell of believing you'll one day hire them is wrong and a form of exploitation, often times regret & feeling used happen later, in the case of exploitation one is usually not aware of being used until it's too late. It might not be that the guy literally says one day I'll marry you, but sometimes they do, sometimes they just start thing off with a softer frame and then ignore or are unaware when the girl is developing deeper feelings, things can get messy and a lot of guys play it dirty if they know they can get sex.

It has gotten bad to the point that in pickup & red pill circles, men literally pursue women, often with pure intent of "pump & dumping" them regardless of what the woman's desires are and they'll do anything to make that happen including emotional manipulation, lying & other dirty tricks. To make things worse especially western culture as seen in the US and also increasingly in Europe has normalized this type of dating. This has also been fueled by economic interests of business like Tinder for whom one night stands are more profitable than long term relationships - if they just matched everyone with their perfect long term partner then their user base would churn, one night stands are recurring paying users, also political ideologies are hijacking hookup culture and aligning with it, because it's a force a wave you can ride on, not because it's necessarily a good culture. I'm starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist at this point, but I'm just pointing out that multiple incentives currently are pushing the culture toward hookups & one night stands, even if this is not what women, or frankly even a lot of men want.

To dive deeper on the last part, I think a lot of men don't like the idea of FWB & one night stands, they often like it as a fantasy more than as a reality, it's more so something that's pushed via hookup culture & red pill & pickup artists who are trying to sell courses in my experience, and it's a status game for many guys. Most women will not brag about having had a ton of one night stands (there are always exceptions to the rule), but there are many guys who believe that them having slept with more women makes them so called higher value men. You'll notice they'll casually drop they've slept with many women without trying to make it sound like a brag, but often times it's a childish status game, hate to say it but a lot of guys are this immature. When it comes to actual mature men they don't overtly try to display sexual value in this way because dropping details about girls you've had sex with or bragging about past sexual experiences you've had not only comes off desperate but is also disrespectful to those women, did they consent to you sharing details about your shared sexual experiences for example? 

[Joshe]

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

But for women in FWB situationships, it's often, "If I like him enough to repeatedly have sex with him, I love him and want to be his partner and I want to be mutually in love." But she may lie to herself because she doesn't want to admit that the dynamic is going nowhere, and say, "FWB is what I'm really looking for. So, I'm totally cool with this." 

Yeah, I've seen that a lot as well. 

This one girl was head over hills for one of my friends and she kept having sex with him anytime he'd call, which was once or twice a month. She acted like she wasn't interested in a relationship because she didn't want to scare him off. Of course, she got tired of him calling just to come have sex, leave, and ignore her the rest of the time. So when she finally started complaining about it, my buddy would tell her "I don't want a relationship and if you don't want to have sex, then I won't call you anymore". So she continued having "casual" sex with him and he thought he was in the clear because he stated his intentions. And he told himself that if her feelings got fucked, it's not on him.

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

So, usually women will not repeatedly have casual sex with a man unless she just loves sex, is very lonely,... or (most often) is wanting something deeper with that particular guy and just hoping the sex means something or that he'll eventually fall for her.

Exactly. It's rarely an emotionally detached transaction like it often is with guys. If she keeps coming back to have sex, unless she's a nympho or something, she wants something more from you, or is seeing if there's anything worth pursuing, and you're bullshitting yourself with all this talk of clearly stated boundaries and healthy casual sex.

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[Joshe]

23 minutes ago, Asayake said:

But how it often seems to play out is morally wrong just like getting an intern to work on your business under the spell of believing you'll one day hire them is wrong and a form of exploitation

perfect analogy 

[LordFall]

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

This one girl was head over hills for one of my friends and she kept having sex with him anytime he'd call, which was once or twice a month. She acted like she wasn't interested in a relationship because she didn't want to scare him off. Of course, she got tired of him calling just to come have sex, leave, and ignore her the rest of the time. So when she finally started complaining about it, my buddy would tell her "I don't want a relationship and if you don't want to have sex, then I won't call you anymore". So she continued having "casual" sex with him and he thought he was in the clear because he stated his intentions. And he told himself that if her feelings got fucked, it's not on him.

So you believe you know what's best for other grown adults better than they do? That is fascinating psychology.

Sounds like your friend was 100% transparent. He laid out the reality, didn't lie, and didn't lead her on. She made an autonomous adult decision to keep participating. Refusing to respect a woman's agency just because feelings can get complicated completely infantalizes her.

When you operate from true abundance, you treat people like adults who are responsible for their own choices, boundaries, and emotional outcomes. You don't play savior and pretend women are fragile children who need you to manage their feelings for them.

[Asayake]

41 minutes ago, LordFall said:

So you believe you know what's best for other grown adults better than they do? That is fascinating psychology.

Sounds like your friend was 100% transparent. He laid out the reality, didn't lie, and didn't lead her on. She made an autonomous adult decision to keep participating. Refusing to respect a woman's agency just because feelings can get complicated completely infantalizes her.

When you operate from true abundance, you treat people like adults who are responsible for their own choices, boundaries, and emotional outcomes. You don't play savior and pretend women are fragile children who need you to manage their feelings for them.

He knew she had deeper feelings for him and wanted a relationship then gave her an ultimatum to keep having sex with him or sayonara, that’s him trying to extract what he wants from her without caring about what it does to her. He should have been the bigger man and said you have developed feelings but that was not my intention with this arrangement, im sorry but its probably best for both of us if we part ways. Thats not infantilising her it’s being responsible for the impact you’re having on other human beings.
 

 

[Joshe]

44 minutes ago, LordFall said:

So you believe you know what's best for other grown adults better than they do? That is fascinating psychology.

Sounds like your friend was 100% transparent. He laid out the reality, didn't lie, and didn't lead her on. She made an autonomous adult decision to keep participating. Refusing to respect a woman's agency just because feelings can get complicated completely infantalizes her.

When you operate from true abundance, you treat people like adults who are responsible for their own choices, boundaries, and emotional outcomes. You don't play savior and pretend women are fragile children who need you to manage their feelings for them.

Lol, that's an interesting interpretation. See where others have already labored to articulate how the ego justifies it's bullshit in this domain. 

[LordFall]

47 minutes ago, Asayake said:

He knew she had deeper feelings for him and wanted a relationship then gave her an ultimatum to keep having sex with him or sayonara, that’s him trying to extract what he wants from her without caring about what it does to her. He should have been the bigger man and said you have developed feelings but that was not my intention with this arrangement, im sorry but its probably best for both of us if we part ways. Thats not infantilising her it’s being responsible for the impact you’re having on other human beings.
 

 

That's not the definition of an ultimatum. Telling someone "hey I don't wanna date you but if you want to keep fucking casually we can do that" is not an ultimatum, it's being honest and transparent. Sometimes people get hung up on you and it is indeed better to break it off and sometimes people can take the truth and keep sleeping with each other casually. A lot of women prefer this branch swinging method of dating where they aren't single for that long and are serially monogamous instead. 

44 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Lol, that's an interesting interpretation. See where others have already labored to articulate how the ego justifies it's bullshit in this domain. 

I think it can sometimes be the case, but it's just as likely that sexual hangups are the issue here. I went to a Catholic high school and they would separate couples making out and tell them "leave room for Jesus!" I don't think that helped anyone understand healthy boundaries and sexual relations and probably caused more harm than good.

I don't know what happened with your buddy but my guess is they kept fucking for a few months, it ran its natural course, she moved on to a boyfriend, and nobody was victimized.

Edited 52 minutes ago by LordFall