Stop letting woman use you

[Olaf]

Okay so one of the biggest mistakes you can make as a men is letting women use you. It doesn´t mean to never be generous or just give nothing at all to her.This is all about frame, are you sucking up to her frame or is she sucking up to your frame. Even when it is like `I want you to be my boyfriend` just say no, NO. Why? Because you shouldn't go for any handouts: you decide when you are going to be in a relationship, you decide when you are gonna buy something for her, you decide when you are gonna do something or change something for her. Surprise her instead of following her and letting her take the lead. This is about being a leader and the number one thing of being a leader is to not be a FOLLOWER. Don't follow orders, as soon as you follow her orders, you are into her frame and you are being used. EVEN if you have sex with her, you would STILL have 0 power in the relationship, you are basically getting used. So whatever she suggests, just say no, "lets do this!!!" No. "Lets go there!!" NO. "Lets kiss!!" NO. NO NO NO!! The only guy that has control is the one who can say no and only does things on his terms.  

[LordFall]

I generally agree but I think you can follow her lead at times especially if underneath you're the one setting up the frame of the relationship. Being competitive for the sake of masculinity is a road to becoming a pseudo alpha male

I think the most important thing is to have a lot of self-awareness and not pandering to women for validation or just to get laid. If you stick to your values and principles you find women that are much more aligned with you and you build high quality relationships as opposed to being the "taking out the garbage/doing the dishes so my wife will hopefully please consider agreeing to sex tonight for the first time in weeks" type of guy.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by LordFall

[Olaf]

@LordFall being in control isn't the same as controlling. Good suggestions can be considered, but only when you are ready, on your terms. For example: she says "lets go there!" you can say "it is a good idea, maybe for later, lets first do this". The problem with most guys is they suck up, not because they want to, but because they want something from her, which is typical nice guy behavior. You are making a gesture of kindness in order to get something in return. The joke is that even when you are genuinely kind they still assume you are a nice guy most of the time, who just does nice things to get laid. Doesn't mean be an asshole, just be a leader. Even when you ask her "what way are you walking?" and she says "that way" you say "okay lets walk this way" you are still taking the lead, always. 

[Inliytened1]

Heck just wait.  You ain't seen nothing yet.  So in a monogamous relationship, and @LordFall i welcome your comments.  There has lo be a dominant one.  In most cases, believe it or not, its the woman.   So she's gonna dictate things.  She isn't using you per se. But understand that this behavior of theirs never improves.  It only gets worse.  

[KosmicGeng]

I tried a conscious relationship, mostly feel due to habits, and I felt exhausted putting in most of the work in a "mongamous" relationship, what I learned mostly if her ego and self-esteem becomes inflated and there is not a single thing you can do about that, because she is to much in "fantasy and lala land" about her ideas/vision etc. of the relationship it's over there is just a lack of groundedness neccessary from man and women for the relationship to work, it depends on the individuals also entirely. 

You can easily let your women led, a bit and trust her intuition, but if she sets you up for competition and for flirts etc. I would disqualify her from being relationship material, I had the issue of two people playing the control game in the relationship, and also the game of letting go of control in order to gain control as a paradox, it was a match made in hell at this point, as I mostly stuck to my principels and values, and she just to behaviour as there was not a single facett that defined principles and values besides the frame of reproduction, 

I find it better from what I can recall from my memory that a women initiates the relationship, tells you I love you first etc. the whole frame of "Let's do this", "Let's go there", "We could check out this venue, let's go there" is simply leading at times also leading like a wolf or a pack of wolves, I've been there a bit, but I am also good at delegating etc. I did a section from Wilber to disambiguate power, which is often done by taking the frame of non-judgement in a transpersonal/transcendent form, which is also a powerful way to lead very quitely, like your the true alpha, or be all end all alpha & omega completed, as you run the show without running the show like an emporer, on rare occasions this happend to me, but this is just from going out and socialzing not actively doing game. 

The worst part is if she has a history of cheating or playing games with men, I get why I had a mother, and the difference of having had a step-mother that was silently abusive etc. this "alpha-women" dominant thing imo is a leftover from modernity, there is enough hostile stuff I could read to manipulate, but you can also "out alpha" such types of women, as it's the only thing they crave, generally I have an issue attracting dominante women, that want to be dominated at times, which makes the whole dynamic a show of wolves trying to lead each other, while I mull over principle and values, she goes over emotions and intuition, and I got exhausted and burned out planning things just being spotaneous the whole time did not work out entirely, as they craved this planning type of leadership, or how I call it now more of this "ahriman consciousness in christ principle" service properly oriented towards the "God-Likeness" or transpersonal experience socialization can bring, if done properly, but at times "Ahriman" ( I am still learning about this) coagulated and this just causes a massive spike in materalistic types of expression and interests, anyhow my 2 cents again, I mostly enjoy just sharing my perspective as I find my experience often very different even on this forum, but it's better then meeting a bunch of pseudo-alphas on online-dating advice, I usually have natural mojo, but kinda lost it after injury now I am just more chill refelecting with occasional anger 

Edited 2 hours ago by KosmicGeng

[Willy Phallicus]

18 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

So she's gonna dictate things.

She wishes.  My wife knows better.

Ideally it would be you dictate things overall without stupidly and/or brazenly overstepping your bounds (domineering) as she will have dictatorial powers over some aspects of the relationship and you shouldn't want to take advantage of that.

[Willy Phallicus]

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It only gets worse.  

That's the dudes fault.  Im all for women being fully autonomous but not when my autonomy is the price.  There's a balance in there somewhere.

Cant live with em, cant live without em and that's a two way street.

[something_else]

Why don’t you just skip a few steps and start posting Andrew Tate content 😂

You sound like an abusive boyfriend. I don’t think you are, but that is the path you are on with this mindset

[Olaf]

@something_else it is not abusive it is being a leader, I am not the one promoting to control girls like andrew tate, infact that is unattractive to woman, if you are always controlling and jealous like Andrew Tate. I am talking about controlling the conversation, which is leading instead of following, following orders is the beta male fantasy. Like the beta male dreams to be a dog with a chain and the woman giving him orders, you know like those kinky things lol.

[Olaf]

And the funny thing is that women are always complaining "why are men not leading? ", they literally hate your guts for following her. It is both for you and her. Most people are reactive, both guys and girls, very few are actually leading and grounded. You want to irritate a woman, ask her "where are we gonna eat tonight? What restaurant? What should I eat on the menu?". 

[something_else]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

So whatever she suggests, just say no, "lets do this!!!" No. "Lets go there!!" NO. "Lets kiss!!" NO. NO NO NO!! The only guy that has control is the one who can say no and only does things on his terms.  

@Olaf This is not being a leader, this is being manipulative, and borderline controlling.

Being a leader doesn’t mean telling someone all of their ideas are wrong. Imagine your boss at work did this to you, how would you feel? Would you want him as your leader/boss? No, you’d fucking hate your life and you’d hate him

Being a leader (in all contexts, not just dating) is about including all perspectives, making people feel heard, being competent, making people feel safe and secure,  bringing out the best in others, allowing them to shine, reducing their mental load, decision making, confidence etc. 

This mindset of “I am a leader therefore we always do things MY way, and it’s my way or the highway” is precisely how you make people not want to follow you. It is the stereotypical cringy alpha male mindset who feels he has to try hard to assert his dominance. 

[Olaf]

@something_else a boss pays your salary, you don't voluntarily take their lead. A women decides every moment if she wants to be lead by you or not, she can go and have sex with another guy any moment and the funny thing is, when you are not in lead and she is leading, then she probably is already having sex with another guy right now who she does desire. Where did I say you can't listen to her? I am not saying to not consider different points of views, but you don't bend and fold and let go of control. You can be in control while considering other perspectives. I am a performer so I am very aware of what happens when you let go of control of a crowd, you know what happens? Chaos, disaster and someone will actually take over your show (heckler). I have seen the exact same happen in relationships.

Edited 1 hour ago by Olaf

[KosmicGeng]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

And the funny thing is that women are always complaining "why are men not leading? ", they literally hate your guts for following her. It is both for you and her. Most people are reactive, both guys and girls, very few are actually leading and grounded. You want to irritate a woman, ask her "where are we gonna eat tonight? What restaurant? What should I eat on the menu?". 

That is the worst, I usually order very quickly so the waitress or waiter comes, or I ask quickly if she already choose etc. it's also a good conversation starter if she is more into food, and demonstrates your not social anxious, deciding quickly and calling the people/service politely, asking for suggestions of her imo is fine, but mostly you decide on a date etc. It's a bit different if it's a local and a hyper informed women, if she's been around and knows every place no planning  or leading makes sense, just pure spontaneity I hated that on one date, she asked about golfing etc. and she even paid my drinks, but that date was horrible, I was testing mostly non-judgement and seeing if we match, the date was horrible she told me she was adopted right from the get go, I had no idea how to react, and just played calm, but I really did not like her looks, it was extremely conformist to some type of feminist I attract, I dislike this pattern currently entirely, even if there is a darker sexual polarity I can't get my head around it without integral theory, or a better grasp of development, but I've seen that turn sour in the last relationship, as she put 0 effort into improving it, but I was also to eager. 

Leading lowkey is fairly easy, even with powerful people most of the time, even with a bit of meditative practices, people appreciate any type of lead, even as service and that present itself often quite well, and shows social skills, charisma or the skill to enchant crowds and have some fun. Anyhow again my 2 cents, I enjoy sort of not being pinned to any comments and riffing on the principles I read and worked through 😮‍💨😵

Also just emoting with a girl is the worst, I wonder how some can even do that, I barely use emotes ever since I learned it's not going to work with a women, and being more stoic payed of, I already can talk and write a lot. 

With friends or in a friendly chat is fine, but gaming holy fucking shit, I had people go crazy about this, nuked the entire, just suggesting a place meeting, venturing from there to venues and leading to your place or second date etc. is fairly simple, if people enjoy each other. 

Edited 11 minutes ago by KosmicGeng

[Natasha Tori Maru]

If you are having these ego/power battles you aren't working as an aligned team (if within a relationship). In a relationship there will be equal leadership at different times in service of the relationships growth, goals and alignment (this includes growth of both individuals). Sometimes one partner will need to take up slack and lead (if the other falls sick for instance, life challenges etc). Man or woman (or anything in between). Mature flexibility. Leadership and negotiation should be the focus. Who is leading will always be dynamic.

In dating the dynamics can change. But realise if you play these push/pull power games many mature partners will reject you as it is often a proxy for your ability to maturely problem solve and navigate conflict. How well can you work as a team to solve a problem? Can be as simple as "where to eat for dinner" or "I want kisses now". All of these are needs that arise from each partner will require solutions and action steps.

Power plays can act as a shit test. They can also reveal immature conflict strategies.

The whole idea is that you find someone you align with and they are on your team. A cooperative system.

Edited 10 minutes ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[something_else]

43 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@something_else a boss pays your salary, you don't voluntarily take their lead. A women decides every moment if she wants to be lead by you or not, she can go and have sex with another guy any moment and the funny thing is, when you are not in lead and she is leading, then she probably is already having sex with another guy right now who she does desire. Where did I say you can't listen to her? I am not saying to not consider different points of views, but you don't bend and fold and let go of control. You can be in control while considering other perspectives. I am a performer so I am very aware of what happens when you let go of control of a crowd, you know what happens? Chaos, disaster and someone will actually take over your show (heckler). I have seen the exact same happen in relationships.

But the point is, a good boss makes you want to follow them independent of the fact that they pay your salary.

I get where you’re coming from, but your goal is to be a guy she wants to follow, not someone who she feels is trying too hard to make her follow him. Obsessing over control is a bad habit to get into, it comes across very needy and insecure.

Confident/secure men don’t really care that much if they are in control or not, which counter-intuitively makes them come across as more in control.

And most healthy relationships are pretty give and take I think. Sometimes she is in control, sometimes you are. The ideal is that both parties contribute to the plans of the relationship. 

If a girl suggests going somewhere, don’t just reject her and tell her no because women aren’t allowed to make plans. Get excited by it and start planning it out, contribute more to her idea. “Oh yea that sounds fun! Let’s do it and then afterwards we can go to place nearby I love called XYZ”.