Stop letting woman use you

[Olaf]

Okay so one of the biggest mistakes you can make as a men is letting women use you. It doesn´t mean to never be generous or just give nothing at all to her.This is all about frame, are you sucking up to her frame or is she sucking up to your frame. Even when it is like `I want you to be my boyfriend` just say no, NO. Why? Because you shouldn't go for any handouts: you decide when you are going to be in a relationship, you decide when you are gonna buy something for her, you decide when you are gonna do something or change something for her. Surprise her instead of following her and letting her take the lead. This is about being a leader and the number one thing of being a leader is to not be a FOLLOWER. Don't follow orders, as soon as you follow her orders, you are into her frame and you are being used. EVEN if you have sex with her, you would STILL have 0 power in the relationship, you are basically getting used. So whatever she suggests, just say no, "lets do this!!!" No. "Lets go there!!" NO. "Lets kiss!!" NO. NO NO NO!! The only guy that has control is the one who can say no and only does things on his terms.  

[LordFall]

I generally agree but I think you can follow her lead at times especially if underneath you're the one setting up the frame of the relationship. Being competitive for the sake of masculinity is a road to becoming a pseudo alpha male

I think the most important thing is to have a lot of self-awareness and not pandering to women for validation or just to get laid. If you stick to your values and principles you find women that are much more aligned with you and you build high quality relationships as opposed to being the "taking out the garbage/doing the dishes so my wife will hopefully please consider agreeing to sex tonight for the first time in weeks" type of guy.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by LordFall

[Olaf]

@LordFall being in control isn't the same as controlling. Good suggestions can be considered, but only when you are ready, on your terms. For example: she says "lets go there!" you can say "it is a good idea, maybe for later, lets first do this". The problem with most guys is they suck up, not because they want to, but because they want something from her, which is typical nice guy behavior. You are making a gesture of kindness in order to get something in return. The joke is that even when you are genuinely kind they still assume you are a nice guy most of the time, who just does nice things to get laid. Doesn't mean be an asshole, just be a leader. Even when you ask her "what way are you walking?" and she says "that way" you say "okay lets walk this way" you are still taking the lead, always. 

[Inliytened1]

Heck just wait.  You ain't seen nothing yet.  So in a monogamous relationship, and @LordFall i welcome your comments.  There has lo be a dominant one.  In most cases, believe it or not, its the woman.   So she's gonna dictate things.  She isn't using you per se. But understand that this behavior of theirs never improves.  It only gets worse.  

[KosmicGeng]

I tried a conscious relationship, mostly feel due to habits, and I felt exhausted putting in most of the work in a "mongamous" relationship, what I learned mostly if her ego and self-esteem becomes inflated and there is not a single thing you can do about that, because she is to much in "fantasy and lala land" about her ideas/vision etc. of the relationship it's over there is just a lack of groundedness neccessary from man and women for the relationship to work, it depends on the individuals also entirely. 

You can easily let your women led, a bit and trust her intuition, but if she sets you up for competition and for flirts etc. I would disqualify her from being relationship material, I had the issue of two people playing the control game in the relationship, and also the game of letting go of control in order to gain control as a paradox, it was a match made in hell at this point, as I mostly stuck to my principels and values, and she just to behaviour as there was not a single facett that defined principles and values besides the frame of reproduction, 

I find it better from what I can recall from my memory that a women initiates the relationship, tells you I love you first etc. the whole frame of "Let's do this", "Let's go there", "We could check out this venue, let's go there" is simply leading at times also leading like a wolf or a pack of wolves, I've been there a bit, but I am also good at delegating etc. I did a section from Wilber to disambiguate power, which is often done by taking the frame of non-judgement in a transpersonal/transcendent form, which is also a powerful way to lead very quitely, like your the true alpha, or be all end all alpha & omega completed, as you run the show without running the show like an emporer, on rare occasions this happend to me, but this is just from going out and socialzing not actively doing game. 

The worst part is if she has a history of cheating or playing games with men, I get why I had a mother, and the difference of having had a step-mother that was silently abusive etc. this "alpha-women" dominant thing imo is a leftover from modernity, there is enough hostile stuff I could read to manipulate, but you can also "out alpha" such types of women, as it's the only thing they crave, generally I have an issue attracting dominante women, that want to be dominated at times, which makes the whole dynamic a show of wolves trying to lead each other, while I mull over principle and values, she goes over emotions and intuition, and I got exhausted and burned out planning things just being spotaneous the whole time did not work out entirely, as they craved this planning type of leadership, or how I call it now more of this "ahriman consciousness in christ principle" service properly oriented towards the "God-Likeness" or transpersonal experience socialization can bring, if done properly, but at times "Ahriman" ( I am still learning about this) coagulated and this just causes a massive spike in materalistic types of expression and interests, anyhow my 2 cents again, I mostly enjoy just sharing my perspective as I find my experience often very different even on this forum, but it's better then meeting a bunch of pseudo-alphas on online-dating advice, I usually have natural mojo, but kinda lost it after injury now I am just more chill refelecting with occasional anger 

Edited 3 hours ago by KosmicGeng

[Willy Phallicus]

18 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

So she's gonna dictate things.

She wishes.  My wife knows better.

Ideally it would be you dictate things overall without stupidly and/or brazenly overstepping your bounds (domineering) as she will have dictatorial powers over some aspects of the relationship and you shouldn't want to take advantage of that.

[Willy Phallicus]

24 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It only gets worse.  

That's the dudes fault.  Im all for women being fully autonomous but not when my autonomy is the price.  There's a balance in there somewhere.

Cant live with em, cant live without em and that's a two way street.

[something_else]

Why don’t you just skip a few steps and start posting Andrew Tate content 😂

You sound like an abusive boyfriend. I don’t think you are, but that is the path you are on with this mindset

[Olaf]

@something_else it is not abusive it is being a leader, I am not the one promoting to control girls like andrew tate, infact that is unattractive to woman, if you are always controlling and jealous like Andrew Tate. I am talking about controlling the conversation, which is leading instead of following, following orders is the beta male fantasy. Like the beta male dreams to be a dog with a chain and the woman giving him orders, you know like those kinky things lol.

[Olaf]

And the funny thing is that women are always complaining "why are men not leading? ", they literally hate your guts for following her. It is both for you and her. Most people are reactive, both guys and girls, very few are actually leading and grounded. You want to irritate a woman, ask her "where are we gonna eat tonight? What restaurant? What should I eat on the menu?". 

[something_else]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

So whatever she suggests, just say no, "lets do this!!!" No. "Lets go there!!" NO. "Lets kiss!!" NO. NO NO NO!! The only guy that has control is the one who can say no and only does things on his terms.  

@Olaf This is not being a leader, this is being manipulative, and borderline controlling.

Being a leader doesn’t mean telling someone all of their ideas are wrong. Imagine your boss at work did this to you, how would you feel? Would you want him as your leader/boss? No, you’d fucking hate your life and you’d hate him

Being a leader (in all contexts, not just dating) is about including all perspectives, making people feel heard, being competent, making people feel safe and secure,  bringing out the best in others, allowing them to shine, reducing their mental load, decision making, confidence etc. 

This mindset of “I am a leader therefore we always do things MY way, and it’s my way or the highway” is precisely how you make people not want to follow you. It is the stereotypical cringy alpha male mindset who feels he has to try hard to assert his dominance. 

[Olaf]

@something_else a boss pays your salary, you don't voluntarily take their lead. A women decides every moment if she wants to be lead by you or not, she can go and have sex with another guy any moment and the funny thing is, when you are not in lead and she is leading, then she probably is already having sex with another guy right now who she does desire. Where did I say you can't listen to her? I am not saying to not consider different points of views, but you don't bend and fold and let go of control. You can be in control while considering other perspectives. I am a performer so I am very aware of what happens when you let go of control of a crowd, you know what happens? Chaos, disaster and someone will actually take over your show (heckler). I have seen the exact same happen in relationships.

Edited 2 hours ago by Olaf

[KosmicGeng]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

And the funny thing is that women are always complaining "why are men not leading? ", they literally hate your guts for following her. It is both for you and her. Most people are reactive, both guys and girls, very few are actually leading and grounded. You want to irritate a woman, ask her "where are we gonna eat tonight? What restaurant? What should I eat on the menu?". 

That is the worst, I usually order very quickly so the waitress or waiter comes, or I ask quickly if she already choose etc. it's also a good conversation starter if she is more into food, and demonstrates your not social anxious, deciding quickly and calling the people/service politely, asking for suggestions of her imo is fine, but mostly you decide on a date etc. It's a bit different if it's a local and a hyper informed women, if she's been around and knows every place no planning  or leading makes sense, just pure spontaneity I hated that on one date, she asked about golfing etc. and she even paid my drinks, but that date was horrible, I was testing mostly non-judgement and seeing if we match, the date was horrible she told me she was adopted right from the get go, I had no idea how to react, and just played calm, but I really did not like her looks, it was extremely conformist to some type of feminist I attract, I dislike this pattern currently entirely, even if there is a darker sexual polarity I can't get my head around it without integral theory, or a better grasp of development, but I've seen that turn sour in the last relationship, as she put 0 effort into improving it, but I was also to eager. 

Leading lowkey is fairly easy, even with powerful people most of the time, even with a bit of meditative practices, people appreciate any type of lead, even as service and that present itself often quite well, and shows social skills, charisma or the skill to enchant crowds and have some fun. Anyhow again my 2 cents, I enjoy sort of not being pinned to any comments and riffing on the principles I read and worked through 😮‍💨😵

Also just emoting with a girl is the worst, I wonder how some can even do that, I barely use emotes ever since I learned it's not going to work with a women, and being more stoic payed of, I already can talk and write a lot. 

With friends or in a friendly chat is fine, but gaming holy fucking shit, I had people go crazy about this, nuked the entire, just suggesting a place meeting, venturing from there to venues and leading to your place or second date etc. is fairly simple, if people enjoy each other. 

Edited 1 hour ago by KosmicGeng

[Natasha Tori Maru]

If you are having these ego/power battles you aren't working as an aligned team (if within a relationship). In a relationship there will be equal leadership at different times in service of the relationships growth, goals and alignment (this includes growth of both individuals). Sometimes one partner will need to take up slack and lead (if the other falls sick for instance, life challenges etc). Man or woman (or anything in between). Mature flexibility. Leadership and negotiation should be the focus. Who is leading will always be dynamic.

In dating the dynamics can change. But realise if you play these push/pull power games many mature partners will reject you as it is often a proxy for your ability to maturely problem solve and navigate conflict. How well can you work as a team to solve a problem? Can be as simple as "where to eat for dinner" or "I want kisses now". All of these are needs that arise from each partner will require solutions and action steps.

Power plays can act as a shit test. They can also reveal immature conflict strategies.

The whole idea is that you find someone you align with and they are on your team. A cooperative system.

Edited 1 hour ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[something_else]

43 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@something_else a boss pays your salary, you don't voluntarily take their lead. A women decides every moment if she wants to be lead by you or not, she can go and have sex with another guy any moment and the funny thing is, when you are not in lead and she is leading, then she probably is already having sex with another guy right now who she does desire. Where did I say you can't listen to her? I am not saying to not consider different points of views, but you don't bend and fold and let go of control. You can be in control while considering other perspectives. I am a performer so I am very aware of what happens when you let go of control of a crowd, you know what happens? Chaos, disaster and someone will actually take over your show (heckler). I have seen the exact same happen in relationships.

But the point is, a good boss makes you want to follow them independent of the fact that they pay your salary.

I get where you’re coming from, but your goal is to be a guy she wants to follow, not someone who she feels is trying too hard to make her follow him. Obsessing over control is a bad habit to get into, it comes across very needy and insecure.

Confident/secure men don’t really care that much if they are in control or not, which counter-intuitively makes them come across as more in control.

And most healthy relationships are pretty give and take I think. Sometimes she is in control, sometimes you are. The ideal is that both parties contribute to the plans of the relationship. 

If a girl suggests going somewhere, don’t just reject her and tell her no because women aren’t allowed to make plans. Get excited by it and start planning it out, contribute more to her idea. “Oh yea that sounds fun! Let’s do it and then afterwards we can go to place nearby I love called XYZ”.

[LordFall]

As you're learning how you want your relationships to be long term I think it's normal to oversteer in one direction and be temporarily unbalanced.

The average man is so passive and not in control of his life that obsessing over control and frame dynamics is good for a while until you test it out and find a healthy middle ground that serves your needs while also not invalidating those of your partners. 

Edited 44 minutes ago by LordFall

[Olaf]

@Natasha Tori Maru I am not talking about controlling woman, I am not talking about push pull. Push pull is mainly for the first few minutes when talking to a girl, not in a relationship, which is fine for attracting woman you meet in real life. But you have to admit that you want a men to lead, like unless you are very masculine in your energy, a feminine woman desires a leader, a calm to her chaos, which is also the idea of guy that is grounded, he is in control of himself and has the strength to lead instead of being a follower.

[KosmicGeng]

I prefer an attuned system nowadays, I had fairly bad experiences with the ex solving problems constantly where they are none and it's more an issue of epistomolgy, worldviews and knowledge let alone intuition, self-awareness of typology cooperation is nice, but only part of duty in my experience, which is responsible but a huge part of social conformity, I yearned for a more conscious relationship, that includes also yogic sex etc. but I gave that away for free unknowingly, I will review the course I did from integral at one point, but I still see mostly the material value having more benefit thea an actual relationship, especially a shared vision and purpose, but I had mostly experiences with a women having children and just going about the social norm regardings this, a lot of lies and deceit, I wish there would be more quality women, when I was peaking to be more of a quality man, I just had fan girls and people even approach me on the street, asking if I was fame steadily making comparision to prominent people, hence I had some bad experience with what I see more now as "lucifer" types of women for lack of a better frame, being out for the nerdy, inquisitve, mystical and adventures guy, while hunting for blood, while I actually crave depth, also sexually and just someone who is patient, and does not overly go horny about my earning potential etc. It was super annoying not having excitement attuned to a level where the monkey mind does not go ape shit all-day, or dating more responsible women, but them lacking any feminity where I was just bored to death, I was meditating most likely on a date, and she had to pay and create the emotional/yin life force in order for me to notice anything, as I just stare and meditate into blankness consciously or unconsciously. 

I've had some negative observations with younger men my age group 3-4 years older mid-late twenties and early 30's that whole team paradigm, seemed super stage green, slightly peaking into tealish territory, when all the cognitive problems arised, that seemed obviously to me more spiritual and being oriented in nature, as stage yellow types of relationships seem like an attenuated form of warm cognitive love, based on mutuality instead of kinship in a team, as a cooperative system, that easily is hijacked into ethnocentric myopia of social conformity of, "give me children or you have no value, I will manipulate and deflate your value as a man, even with high fecundity etc." as the women can't see the man as something higher then just the provider role, let alone see the man takes part in multiple roles, I spoke with a psychologist about this studying and doing extensive classes after work, she could also not find a man properly, and just uses these surrogat objects of care to fill the cup of love and compassion which imo is fine, I see women doing that as perfectly normal and healthy, even parts of tealish development as they can pull themselves out of the reproductive perspective many more normis have including men, but IIRC power & conflict are normal, there has to be a tool or a set of tools to reconciliate and re-ignite for example a relationship itself, it's a lot of work, most of my knowledge/information come from Keith Witt, and Mastery IIRC where they speak about mastering relationships is one of the hardest thing to do, also including David Deidas book intimate communion, and some stuff I recently read, so I just up the bar more, I am amazed I even get attraction from hot girls that are intelligent, as I don't really see myself that way at times. I see myself more as intutive and mystical or cosmos oriented, where intelligence is more akin to life force itself etc.

What bothered me about solving problems in a relationship it was mostly about conflict resolving not solving problems, it sounds so logical for a man at times, as if I'd be required to fix her or she me, most of my problems solve themselves intutively, idk was weird, but I am still fairly young, and did a lot of prep work, idk what will happen, I agree with most of what was said by @Natasha Tori Maru, but ultimately the constant action step taking, planning and working out solutions showed me so many loop holes the last time, I would've been happy if the ex I am speaking about would've done at least one integral course, or if there would be a higher degree of open-mindedness to solve problems, especially in a none-power oriented way, which includes transcending power all together but that was to advanced, it was ironic how the same person who is displayed to such a dynamic/polarity will unconsciously hook competition for you, that was an odd experience, but I am also quite comeptitive can't deny it was part of my shadow, I know myself to well in that regard, anyhow again my 2 cents, polarity is also normal and different from push&pull power games, that mostly involves envy, there are many emotions at play that can create a push & pull dynamic, but envy by far is the worst, or not recognizing and finding unmeet needs will just make the person feel not listend to, I hated this the most, I can listen excellently and meet others needs but vice-versa I have barely experienced that, and often I meet my own needs helping others also, which creates a dynamic where I easily feel taken for granted, but receiving help at times is also nice, I am learning more of that I denied a lot of help, I am more of a dominant person believe it or not. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

7 minutes ago, Olaf said:

@Natasha Tori Maru I am not talking about controlling woman, I am not talking about push pull. Push pull is mainly for the first few minutes when talking to a girl, not in a relationship, which is fine for attracting woman you meet in real life. But you have to admit that you want a men to lead, like unless you are very masculine in your energy, a feminine woman desires a leader, a calm to her chaos, which is also the idea of guy that is grounded, he is in control of himself and has the strength to lead instead of being a follower.

I am flexible with a balance between feminine and masculine traits. I don't feel a pressing need to be in one or the other. Whatever is happening in my experience just manifests whatever polarity is suitable and I let it flow naturally.

I don't agree with the definition of femininity being chaos. I think that is a limiting frame peddled by Jordan Peterson due to his own misunderstanding.

I don't want or need a man to lead. I am fine with whatever arises naturally as a dynamic. And if I am not fine with it I problem solve accordingly.

Additionally I think I was clear illustrating the differences between dynamics within relationship vs dating or attraction phase.

 

Edited 36 minutes ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Olaf]

@Natasha Tori Maru but you have to admit you are quite a unique woman, hahaha