Relationship Based on Truth, Honesty & Vulnerability

[Miguel1]

@Natasha Tori Maru I will respond to you later more in-depth but as I said myself in the opener, I am still unsure about his work.

Precisely because of the reason you said. He comes across very strong, which can easily lead to frame controlling. Which he is very much aware of, as he came from the PUA community.

And one of the main reasons I made this thread is so you guys can show me the blindspots I might have. I am always careful that I fall into someone’s frame and it blinds me. Especially to people with such strong character.

At the same time, it might be for marketing purposes and / or just a deep passion for the topic. See Leo in the past.

Here the guest challenges him more.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Miguel1

[AION]

12 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

@Rishabh R @AION

Of course his work is about developing real strenght, which comes from diving deep into yourself, your fears, your shadows, and your weaknesses.

Where did you even get the idea that this is not the case?

Because vulnerability/weakness is not always good. This part is never stated which is important to state. Whatever you do it depends where it comes from. If it comes from power it is good. But some champion vulnerabiltiy as the end all be all of relationships. So that is probably why you are failing with dating.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

@Natasha Tori Maru I will respond to you later more in-depth but as I said myself in the opener, I am still unsure about his work.

Precisely because of the reason you said. He comes across very strong, which can easily lead to frame controlling. Which he is very much aware of, as he came from the PUA community.

And one of the main reasons I made this thread is so you guys can show me the blindspots I might have. I am always careful that I fall into someone’s frame and it blinds me. Especially to people with such strong character.

At the same time, it might be for marketing purposes and / or just a deep passion for the topic. See Leo in the past.

Here the guest challenges him more.

 

Appreciate the share and appreciate you! 

I haven't drawn any conclusions yet. But I'll spend some time listening on my lunchbreak tomorrow. I don't know much about frame control. No idea if I would be vulnerable to that. Although at a guess I would say there is a significant chance 😁 

I'm faily confident with my intuition in general.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

What is so terrifying about being vulnerable and it not being received well? 

Does it have to do with the person expressing vulnerability? Or does it have more to do with the other who rejects? Or timing?

[Valach]

3 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

What is so terrifying about being vulnerable and it not being received well? 

Does it have to do with the person expressing vulnerability? Or does it have more to do with the other who rejects? Or timing?

Because for the first time in your life you would be getting rejected for who you truly are and not for some persona.

[Davino]

I've been living in a relationship based on those principles for 7+ years and it has been one of the hardest and most beautiful things in my life.

[Miguel1]

1 minute ago, Davino said:

I've been living in a relationship based on those principles for 7+ years and it has been one of the hardest and most beautiful things in my life.

I was in such a relationship for 5 years until last fall, except I was so much more unconscious and immature than now.

It was the most beautiful relationship I have experienced by far, but also the most painful and the worst hell.

That relationship + doing Leo’s work seriously, I grew in 5 years way too fucking much. Way more than I had ever imagined.

Such a relationship combined with Actualized.org will show you all of your bullshits, self-deceptions and manipulations that you do unconsciously in the relationship.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

8 minutes ago, Valach said:

Because for the first time in your life you would be getting rejected for who you truly are and not for some persona.

But why is that terrifying? 

Do you think you can ever totally know someone? Truly? 

[Valach]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But why is that terrifying? 

Do you think you can ever totally know someone? Truly? 

Because it touches the wound that were created by our parents. They saw us and rejected us (partially) and so it creates the feeling of us not being good enough thus the need to perform and if we do not perform and get rejected for this, the wound gets reactivated.

Probably you can't know someone completely, that person would have to know themself in the first place. But you can reach a point of true vulnerability and being seen.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Valach thank you 🫶

It touches close to the feeling of death. To be rejected and cast out from a clan, group or community, prior to modernity - could very well mean certain death. Survival fears triggered. 

But I wish to point toward something also - the fear. Is there really anything to fear at all there? 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

The fear isn't actually real. There is no threat. 

The fear is what keeps us seperated.

The fear is total deception. 

Fear is what creates seperation. It stops us recognising we are God. 

[Miguel1]

@Natasha Tori Maru Facing yourself and your deepest fears is WAY easier said than done.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Facing yourself and your deepest fears is WAY easier said than done.

I never said it was easy. But it is the only way I know. Absolute trust in myself the fear will not be my undoing. I will endure no matter what happens.

This is the only way I know to approach another in total authenticity and vulnerability - by trusting myself.

If you don't trust yourself.... This could be at the heart of the issue.

[Miguel1]

@Natasha Tori Maru The point is that most people are not willing to do that.

Even in our community, which is extremely niched, how maky of us are actually willing to face such fears in ourselves?

[WonderSeeker]

Nice thread @Miguel1 and co. Reading through it has been insightful and I definitely relate to it, having done insane amounts of inner work causing me to redefine how I relate to others.

Honestly, and this is more on the external support factors as @LordFall discussed, a big reason I moved to Asia (soon China) is because it pays well in my industry (money not an issue for the flow of dating) and there is FAR MORE femininity here than in North America at the moment. 

The best girl I ever dated was from Mongolia when I was there in 2022. Even though it was a short relationship — due to me having to move back to the states — we connected deeply VERY fast because I felt so good with her I was able to be simultaneously highly masculine/dominant and feminine in smart, calibrated ways.

For example, sexually, taking the lead was a ton of fun and very smooth. Afterwords we would sit there in bed and start talking about deep things. At one point she even was like "ooooh that's DEEEP," but we kept talking about that topic anyways. Then later I said, "Wanna see me cry? There's this song that has a lot of meaning for me and it makes me cry every time." She of course enthusiastically said she wanted to see me cry. So, I did. 

She went crazy for me after that. The day I left she blew up my phone, sad to see me go. We wrote letters after. So, this is proof that these deeper connections are out there. I don't have much experience outside of her, because the rest of the woman I've ever dated came from fucked up backgrounds.

I agree with you @Miguel1 in the sense that trauma healing and the desire to genuinely connect is more important than high spiral development; what matters more is healthy spiral development. A girl acn be say orange/green like my example, but also healthy because she isn't clinging to it if that makes sense. Nothing is holding her back from connection and openness.

I'm going with my gut because personally I think the west is cooked in terms of dating. I am so turned off by 95% of the women in western countries; that's not a put-down against them, it's just a preferential line in the sand I've drawn because hardened, masculine women are basically men with tits and long hair.

I am massively confident about moving to China to find such women to open up with. I have the same desire as you, and I think they are out there when you look in the right places.

Edited 2 hours ago by WonderSeeker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Miguel1 it's rare. Even here. It is a big part of embodiment and grounding in the work.

In my own journey - the things I wouldn't face, self trust, feelings of unworthiness, imposter syndrome... I seemed to find myself in situations again and again where I was faced with the same issues. Each time I ignored the issue - the next time it cropped up it was louder. Louder. Until it was screaming so hard I couldn't ignore it any longer. The pain of remaining in that space was worse than the pain of finally facing it.

That pattern repeated for me until I was ready to face it. I contributed to it appearing in retrospect. Perhaps you haven't heard the screaming full force .. yet. Maybe you have. 

Only experience taught me self trust. 

Relationships have a way of fast tracking spiritual growth and being a mirror for all your shit. Done right, conscious ones, bring up as much pain as joy. The pain of growth. 

The only way is to just risk it all and be open to opportunities. What you seek might not be where you would look - or who you think you need to look for. 

Maybe you don't know what's best for you? I sure didn't  ❤️

[Valach]

22 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Miguel1 it's rare. Even here. It is a big part of embodiment and grounding in the work.

In my own journey - the things I wouldn't face, self trust, feelings of unworthiness, imposter syndrome... I seemed to find myself in situations again and again where I was faced with the same issues. Each time I ignored the issue - the next time it cropped up it was louder. Louder. Until it was screaming so hard I couldn't ignore it any longer. The pain of remaining in that space was worse than the pain of finally facing it.

That pattern repeated for me until I was ready to face it. I contributed to it appearing in retrospect. Perhaps you haven't heard the screaming full force .. yet. Maybe you have. 

Only experience taught me self trust. 

Relationships have a way of fast tracking spiritual growth and being a mirror for all your shit. Done right, conscious ones, bring up as much pain as joy. The pain of growth. 

The only way is to just risk it all and be open to opportunities. What you seek might not be where you would look - or who you think you need to look for. 

Maybe you don't know what's best for you? I sure didn't  ❤️

I agree with this so much. I never really sought out stopping of the avoidant patterns in my life and facing my own inner misery. I was forced by life to do it.