Relationship Based on Truth, Honesty & Vulnerability

[AION]

13 minutes ago, LordFall said:

 

@AION What do you mean younger women are super open, gen z is like the most self-aware generation in history. I think they have high standards when dating and especially the women don't have tolerance for a man randomly venting for no reason and not having life figured out. That's fine, that's why we have a self-development forum! To figure out all our issues, level up far beyond the masses and date all the hot girls happily ever after. 

It is true that women have high expectations compared to the past but they are not offering more compared to the past. 

If I have to go to hell and back to become the top 10% of men to get a top shelf hot girl, I'm not settling down. I will play the field as the alpha guys are doing.  

This development will cause a demographic crises though. 

Edited 4 hours ago by AION

[Ulax]

11 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Got it, apologies I misunderstood. I thought you were shaming him for opening up about his dating life. 

I get you. All good.

[LordFall]

9 minutes ago, AION said:

It is true that women have high expectations compared to the past but they are not offering more compared to the past. 

If I have to go to hell and back to become the top 10% of men to get a top shelf hot girl, I'm not settling down. I will play the field as the alpha guys are doing.  

This development will cause a demographic crises though. 

You should, achieve your best life. Cultural analysis is quite hard at the moment, the next 20 years of human history are gonna be a cluster fuck of different dynamics intersecting. You say demographic crises I say AI automation and biological immortality taking our species to way greater and more exciting heights than we've ever experienced before. 

I think it's much easier to focus on our own lives than try to call what different cultures and societies are gonna do. Personally I'm in that boat where I'm maximizing my status and SMV as much as possible and not settling down anytime soon. I think this is a great strategy, many people in the past were forced into unsatisfactory marriages due to societal pressures to settle down. I doubt I'll have kids before 38-40 and perhaps with multiple women depending on how my polyamorous experiences develop. 

[LordFall]

28 minutes ago, AION said:

It is like expecting a chick with a dick. It is not natural. I prefer natural. There are girls with great wisdom but they suffered a lot. Great wisdom comes with great suffering but that comes with a mixbag of emotional baggage and such. That is not my thing.

Wait til you find out about femboys and trans girls. Oh boy. 

26 minutes ago, Hojo said:

All of these ruin the fun. You thinking about money, you will get someone who doesn't love you. Its not about us vs the world its about us hanging out. You wont even love your girlfriend you will love money or bullshit you can buy her.

Dating on low income is fun. I dunno where you get these ideas from. Its not more fun if you are standing on a yacht or grass.

You are turning the dating in us vs the world with these ideas about needed to be better than it.

I bet your multimillionaire friend was a literal cuck.

Why cant you enjoy yourself and your girlfriend without luxuries surrounding you? That makes no sense to me. And never has.

I get angry when luxuries surrounding me. Everytime I went to a fancy place I felt like I was in hell or school over again. I rip my fancy clothing off and roll in the filth when I get home.

You want the authority of fancyness to run your life cause being poor is too free.

Its super fake to me. Not you perse as a person but the entire lifestyle is phoney.

You are never again going to make robot costumes and walk around at home being robot because it dosent cost enough money?

Did your last girlfriend call you poor?

Why do you get angry when surrounded with luxury? You feel like you're a slave to the environment and have to be unauthentic to belong and it angers you? I get that

I'm an INTP so I get fun figuring out systems and creating my own. Standing on a yacht is way more fun to me than standing on grass. There is content potential, capacity limits, you invite too many girls so just the right amount show up, all the girls are in bikinis and perhaps we'll find a good excuse to get people off their phone and swimming into the water, jet skis, boat barbecue, yacht tie up parties, lake drone footage, fucking in the cabin, etc. What on earth are you experiencing in the park? 

I want to take two girls with me to go work in a cabin by a lake here. I think it would be very fun to be out of the city and relaxing with a sauna and body of water and just chill smoke weed, fuck, read books, etc. Not even a luxurious cabin but a nice comfy spot for just one week, which is really not enough but is a good start. 

That's $2200 not covering gas, food and missing work so really more like $3500. I can experience all of this with the hottest women on the planet and you're trying to sell me walks in the parks with Sally from the neighbourhood. Once again I think you're insane my friend or perhaps I have been ruined by seeing abundance up close so I can't really go back to living a mediocre life. 

Edited 4 hours ago by LordFall

[Hojo]

@LordFall I thought we were talking about dating a woman, not hoarding as many of them as you can together in a room to have the highest chance of having sex with one of them.

Yes I get angry cause its phoney. Its the phoniest life you could live. It dosent bring joy to your life. These people are miserable. You sound like you dont want a relationship you want to use the person to fullfill some goal. You will surround yourself with these people, thats what you have to do to live like this. Constantly a slave to what the person can give you even tho you dont like them.

You can be a in a relationship where you dont have to give anything but being there. Thats way better.

Edited 4 hours ago by Hojo

[LordFall]

6 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@LordFall I thought we were talking about dating a woman, not hoarding as many of them as you can together to have sex with as many as possible.

Well obviously both is the goal. If you have a girlfriend that likes women why not go and fuck other hot women together? As well as experience the many beautiful places the world has to offer?

I think if you do a lot of meditation and consciousness practice during this process you can actually destroy your own hedonic adaptation whereas usually people that do this get tired of it after a while. I got my mind to the point where I have crushes on women just like when I was a teenager but even while having slept with a lot to the point where a lot of guys are usually jaded at this point. 

I think that's the best gift you can give yourself, find multiple women you have crushes on, date them all together, travel the world, build a great business so you all get rich together, contribute to the social causes you care about and leave your mark on humanity. That's the good life. Why would anyone settle for anything less than that? That makes no sense to me. 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by LordFall

[AION]

19 minutes ago, LordFall said:

You should, achieve your best life. Cultural analysis is quite hard at the moment, the next 20 years of human history are gonna be a cluster fuck of different dynamics intersecting. You say demographic crises I say AI automation and biological immortality taking our species to way greater and more exciting heights than we've ever experienced before. 

I think it's much easier to focus on our own lives than try to call what different cultures and societies are gonna do. Personally I'm in that boat where I'm maximizing my status and SMV as much as possible and not settling down anytime soon. I think this is a great strategy, many people in the past were forced into unsatisfactory marriages due to societal pressures to settle down. I doubt I'll have kids before 38-40 and perhaps with multiple women depending on how my polyamorous experiences develop. 

My focus is myself too.  Though I'm not that materialistic as you. Just having 1 family with a semi sane girl is more than enough for me. Just raising one child is already very stressful and sacrifcial for our health. No way I'm sacrifcing my health to spawn 10 brats in the age of AI.

[LordFall]

14 minutes ago, AION said:

My focus is myself too.  Though I'm not that materialistic as you. Just having 1 family with a semi sane girl is more than enough for me. Just raising one child is already very stressful and sacrifcial for our health. No way I'm sacrifcing my health to spawn 10 brats in the age of AI.

I don't know why people call it sleeping like a baby, they are notorious terrible sleepers. New parents average 4-5 hours of sleep in the first year of their newborn being alive.

I don't think you understand how well I'm gonna sleep with my robot butler taking care of that little mini me on top of hiring an actual maternity nurse to soothe the journey. Also think about it if you got 3 women in a polyamorous setup and they raise your kids together then each women both has friends all the time with them to make it less stressful and boring and also each women has to do less chores by herself and has more energy and time to spend on you while you're done taking care of the business and the kids are sleeping and now you got your women for the evening.

Sometimes people paint this caricature of money and game like wanting to only drink from 24 karat gold glasses or only picking up women from a Lamborghini; that's not really the idea. For example for that maternity nurse to help with first year of raising a kid that's about $7-10K/month. If you don't want to pay another woman to raise your kid and just want your wife to be able to be a stay at home mom depending on the cost of living in your area you easily need a $200k+ salary to afford that and a decent quality of life IF NOT MORE LIKE 300-400K.

You guys know how people on this forum are like OMG I've awakened to God I can do anything life is a dream! That's basically how rich people live. They solve most of their actual mechanical problems with real solutions but that's expensive. I don't really aim to live like a low or middle class person long term if I don't have to, there's literally no point it's painful and boring for no reason. 

I don't know who knows what my actual marriage will look like 10 years from now but I'm looking forward to it. I've always been a romantic I love being in a relationship but it needs to be the right one, I learned all I didn't like from my ex so I'm building my life to avoid the same pitfalls in the meanwhile.

What about you, what are your current dating bottlenecks and what type of monthly action are you taking towards achieving your dream dating life? 

Edited 3 hours ago by LordFall

[AION]

@LordFall so how much do you make per month right now

[LordFall]

1 minute ago, AION said:

@LordFall so how much do you make per month right now

Not enough bro. This year has been involved a lot of forced restructuring for me. Last year I made much more money but I was dependent on one main client that was paying me $5k/month and then we changed the format to be a pay per event contract which switched me from being an hourly worker to only working when I wanted to but having to deliver on hosting real world events for him which cut my income by about half. I moved back with my dad to cut my expenses and restructure my cashflow so its not dependent on working in hours and lets me acquire multiple clients that I can fulfill with a reasonable amount of work hours and enjoy life.

By Q4 of this year it should start paying off and by next spring I should be able to travel and start to live the live I talked about here. 

[Jirh]

Really honest, vulnerable relationship is tough. You have to admit things you never would otherwise. You have to actually expose the devil you are to the light and burn. It's hard and painful. But it's what happens when the relationship is right. It forces you to face your shadows directly and purifies you.

But you need a perfect mirror of yourself to experience this kind of relationship, someone who can reflect back at you what you are afraid to look at.

Edited 3 hours ago by Jirh

[bazera]

The whole issue and difficulty with being vulnerable is that you might lose the person you want to be with. There might be things that you say to her that will repel her (or him) and she'll leave. Or at least that's the fear that's causing the resistance to being vulnerable in the first place.

I don't think that fear is irrational. I think there can be some things that you can say in a relationship that will kill the intimacy and trust.

Now the question is, if you want to maintain integrity, truth and honesty, are you willing to potentially end your relationship? Because sometimes honesty might endanger the survival of two person being together. It doesn't have to always be the case of such severity, that truth ends relationship, but often it can.

I think that's where maturity comes in, if the other person also values truth, it can be more realistic to speak of scenarios like that without much damage. But again, valuing truth doesn't mean that trust will be maintained or vulnerability won't cause issues.

It's a double edged sword. It's hard to be intimate without vulnerability, but truth can also end your relationships.

[Jirh]

18 minutes ago, bazera said:

truth can also end your relationships

That's the crux of the issue. Most people can't be honest because they lack internal resourcefulness/abundance. They can't stand the thought of being alone.

Some people compensate for this lack with external abundance. They don't learn to be more authentic; they learn to lie/hide better. They learn to protect themselves instead of accepting the pain.

Either way, nothing on the inside changes, let alone gets resolved. They date and retire from dating as the same person that entered, often with even more defences and complexes than when they started; the same scared child, even more alone.

I can see this most clearly in those who do pickup. The whole thing is often just a big defence mechanism against the truth they're afraid of facing.

Edited 2 hours ago by Jirh

[Miguel1]

15 minutes ago, bazera said:

The whole issue and difficulty with being vulnerable is that you might lose the person you want to be with. There might be things that you say to her that will repel her (or him) and she'll leave. Or at least that's the fear that's causing the resistance to being vulnerable in the first place.

I don't think that fear is irrational. I think there can be some things that you can say in a relationship that will kill the intimacy and trust.

Now the question is, if you want to maintain integrity, truth and honesty, are you willing to potentially end your relationship? Because sometimes honesty might endanger the survival of two person being together. It doesn't have to always be the case of such severity, that truth ends relationship, but often it can.

I think that's where maturity comes in, if the other person also values truth, it can be more realistic to speak of scenarios like that without much damage. But again, valuing truth doesn't mean that trust will be maintained or vulnerability won't cause issues.

It's a double edged sword. It's hard to be intimate without vulnerability, but truth can also end your relationships.

Yes, this is why you do all this from the get go. And this is why it is extremely hard to find someone to go on dates with to begin with — most girls are not willing to do this.

Naftali is a very good looking lad, yet he says he rarely goes on dates (nor has ONS) cuz there’s nobody he deems worthy of. This is a guy with very high libido and comes from PUA background. He could get laid easily.

He has a community of likeminded people, is relatively popular on the internet, yet he still struggles to find worthy people. What chances do a normie like me have?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DboWoQZkiQj/?igsh=MWZoZjN3MDZmdGs2dg==

[Miguel1]

5 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Also not sure why - I really had a lot of trouble listening to the talk linked. Naftali Moses, correct?

This is just my cold vibe based read; he seems very unhealed. Very knowing. Very full. I felt like he was very attached to the role he was playing of the 'giver of advice, solutions' and I also sensed a bit of a saviour complex. I sense emotional avoidance within HIM, actually. Inability to go into victim. I feel like he may be fixated on control. Not sure why I felt this way. He seemed very shut down to alternative explanations to the ones he was presenting. He did not ask questions to explore the interviewers thinking and how she arrived at the conclusions she did. He simply told her his narrative was correct. Not sure, I felt something was off.

I got this vibe from him very strongly at first too when I first bumped into his content. And I am still not sure if this is the case or not.

But remember this podcast was in 2024. There’s a lot of growing in 2 years, especially for someone who is serious about it.

Also, he could be talking such boldly cuz he knows it works in the social media space, just like Leo used to practice. And / or it could just be that he is exceptionally passionate about it.

Finally, perhaps it is just the masculine way to go about this. Very straight to the point, cut through bullshit approach.

But no way is he perfect. And as you said, most likely still has a bunch of inner stuff to be worked on.

But the stuff he talks about and the way he talks, is fresh in the online self-help / relationship advice space. I gotta give him that.

Edited 2 hours ago by Miguel1

[Natasha Tori Maru]

37 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

I got this vibe from him very strongly at first too when I first bumped into his content. And I am still not sure if this is the case or not.

But remember this podcast was in 2024. There’s a lot of growing in 2 years, especially for someone who is serious about it.

Also, he could be talking such boldly cuz he knows it works in the social media space, just like Leo used to practice. And / or it could just be that he is exceptionally passionate about it.

Finally, perhaps it is just the masculine way to go about this. Very straight to the point, cut through bullshit approach.

But no way is he perfect. And as you said, most likely still has a bunch of inner stuff to be worked on.

But the stuff he talks about and the way he talks, is fresh in the online self-help / relationship advice space. I gotta give him that.

I'm listening to another conversation between him and Adam Lane Smith and I dislike what I hear. 

I don't think a rhetorical style where you tell someone how it is an effective way to communicate. It tends to shut down critical thinking and make the receiver feel unheard. I think this is just his un-integrated parts showing though. Truly listening to another may be an issue for him he is working on? Who knows. 

Overall I don't often choose to delve into someone's work who I don't feel embodies their teachings. I will listen and asses for sure, but I don't have an experience that makes me return - just me personally. 

Overall he isn't saying anything new for me, just rehashing a lot of existing content with the framing of masculinity. I think this is just me though. Less and less I find the masculine/feminine split very useful to understand interpersonal dynamics. I find it limiting. I wasn't always so, just recently. I don't discount biology at all, but people can't be boxed in.

He's not for me - but I am glad he resonates with you. What hits home the most for you that he focuses on?

[Rishabh R]

@Miguel1 But vulnerability represents power which manipulation cannot provide. As Leo mentioned in his video avoidance of Truth that truth ( vulnerability in this case ) gives you depth ,power that others simply don't have . It's the counterintuitive nature of life . Even though I too have never dated but vulnerability sorts out women worth being with . It generates receptivity. Speaking from experience .Also you can read Models by Mark Manson especially the chapter - Power in vulnerability.

[AION]

16 minutes ago, Rishabh R said:

@Miguel1 But vulnerability represents power which manipulation cannot provide. As Leo mentioned in his video avoidance of Truth that truth ( vulnerability in this case ) gives you depth ,power that others simply don't have . It's the counterintuitive nature of life . Even though I too have never dated but vulnerability sorts out women worth being with . It generates receptivity. Speaking from experience .Also you can read Models by Mark Manson especially the chapter - Power in vulnerability.

That is the problem with such authors. They only tell you half truths which is worse than a falsehood. Vulnerability is only power/sexy if it comes from strength. If it comes from weakness it is not powerful at all. It is the pre/trans falacy. That is why 90% of those tier 1 authors are garbage. Not so long ago I made a thread how power and sex are related but nobody responded to it although it was gold. Too complicated I guess.

Edited 1 hour ago by AION

[bazera]

1 hour ago, Jirh said:

Some people compensate for this lack with external abundance. They don't learn to be more authentic

I view external abundance positively. Learning to be more authentic requires experience first, exposing onself to opportunities of being authentic vs inauthentic. That's what abundance provides, but yeah, you need a correct mindset and meta understanding that this is what you're doing, making distinctions of honesty vs dishonesty in direct experience.

Pursuing external abundance without any meta vision and just for it's own sake, just as an animal, yeah, that can become problematic and a nest for insecurities.

[Miguel1]

22 minutes ago, AION said:

That is the problem with such authors. They only tell you half truths which is worse than a falsehood. Vulnerability is only power/sexy if it comes from strength. If it comes from weakness it is not powerful at all. It is the pre/trans falacy. That is why 90% of those tier 1 authors are garbage. Not so long ago I made a thread how power and sex are related but nobody responded to it although it was gold. Too complicated I guess.

@Rishabh R @AION

Of course his work is about developing real strenght, which comes from diving deep into yourself, your fears, your shadows, and your weaknesses.

Where did you even get the idea that this is not the case?