Relationship Based on Truth, Honesty & Vulnerability

[Miguel1]

10 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Do you think you are the best option of most women that you go on dates with? Often times being deep can simply be a defence mechanism for not having your shit together and using dating as a distraction from getting money in the bank and figuring out viable cashflow verticals that will allow us to life out our life purposes to their fullest potential.

Definitely not best from the standpoint of maximizing their stage orange desires (or even green for that matter), and definitely not for their desire to run away from themselves.

Quite the opposite actually.

And yes, you are correct. There is a word for it: it is called spiritual by-passing. I am very well aware of it, and this is not the issue for me here.

Think: why does Leo not date (based on last public information)? Why doesn’t the most developed beings date?

[LordFall]

42 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Definitely not best from the standpoint of maximizing their stage orange desires (or even green for that matter), and definitely not for their desire to run away from themselves.

Quite the opposite actually.

And yes, you are correct. There is a word for it: it is called spiritual by-passing. I am very well aware of it, and this is not the issue for me here.

Think: why does Leo not date (based on last public information)? Why doesn’t the most developed beings date?

I think Leo has fallen into dating complacency and is using cope like "there are no spiritual women out there!" to avoid the hard emotional labor of finding someone compatible with his lifestyle and having to build back the social muscle to attract hot women that are also mentally healthy and compatible with an individual with an entrepreneurial mindset. 

I think reducing wanting to date a man that's financially secure and abundant to stage orange desire is a bit of a cop out. Dating is supposed to be about enriching eachother's lives and raising kids if you want to go down that path. Even just living a basic life without worrying too much about the rising costs of groceries and rent requires a pretty high income these days and age. If you want to add to that occasional vacations to see and explore the world and being able to take time off to explore life purposes without being stressed by work, you definitely need to make a lot of income in a quite flexible way and have decent savings. 

To me the way I think about is what kind of dating life can I have vs me the exact same but I actually spent a year to figure out my business and now have $10k+/month in disposable income. The difference is one version of me has to budget immensely and mostly does coffee/cheap drinks dates or walks in the park and have to juggle now having emotional partners and also still figuring out my business. The other version can now afford to spend thousands on his dating life a month and I already pull decently so I can jump to a rotation of 3-5 girls if I wanted to and also travel the world with them while working on my life purpose and helping them explore theirs. The difference is so drastic to me that I have been in a monk mode for a couple of years now to figure out my business and it's working slowly but surely.

To me that's also the difference between looking for acceptance vs actualizing your potential across different niches as a man. If I was my actualized self I would have more women then I'd know what to do with, I have built my life with wide access in mind so now only disposable income is the real bottleneck. It seems reductionistic but I would say 60% of men are in the same boat and 35% of men have already good disposable income but struggle with more technical game and dating strategy and 5% have truly unique issues if not even less then that. 

I'm more an introvert than you are and I still do a lot of socializing through my communities, it's not like I decided to be a hermit but I found a lot of strength and clarity in this path and the women I've been able to cultivate in my acquaintance circle and in my owned communities has jumped through the roof in these past few years. I don't know what you do for work and what your income is but I think focusing on that will yield more clarity and effectiveness over demanding acceptance and vulnerability from women when you are in the building phase. 

Edited 4 hours ago by LordFall

[Miguel1]

34 minutes ago, LordFall said:

I think reducing wanting to date a man that's financially secure and abundant to stage orange desire is a bit of a cop out.

I did not say that.

I have to go to sleep now but I’ll get back more in-depth tomorrow.

[Xonas Pitfall]

Vulnerability is very much like flirting or sharing secrets. The process is surprisingly similar.

With flirting, you don't immediately jump into fucking or confessing your feelings. Instead, both people engage in this gradual "testing the waters" process. You're constantly gauging whether the interest is mutual because neither person wants to be flat-out rejected, seem too needy, desperate, or come on too strong. "Plausible deniability". You might hold eye contact a little longer, lightly touch them, notice whether they pull away or lean in, or slowly decrease the physical distance between you. Each small interaction is a way of checking whether the other person is receptive.

The same thing happens with sharing secrets. You don't tell a complete stranger your deepest personal information. Instead, you reveal little bits here and there. You watch how they're received. Are they judgmental? Do they gossip? Do they speak poorly about other people behind their backs? Share their secrets? All of those small cues tell you whether this is someone you can trust with something bigger.

The exact same principle applies to vulnerability.

What I've personally found in relationships is that if you come across as having very strong opinions, seeming judgmental, inflexible, or overly self-focused, people slowly become less willing to open up. Likewise, when someone shares something emotional, sensitive, or even just a little silly, and they're met with defensiveness, subtle ridicule, dismissal, or the feeling that it might later be used against them, those experiences gradually build a mental model of how safe it is to be vulnerable with you. Again, the key thing to understand is that all of this happens through subtle, gradual social cues that people unconsciously learn to recognize over time. It's rarely about one specific incident that you can point to and say, "This is why they stopped opening up." Instead, it's the accumulation of dozens or even hundreds of tiny interactions that slowly shape a person's internal sense of, "How much do I trust this person?"

If you want someone to share deeply with you, you first have to recognize and cherish the small moments of vulnerability. If you want big vulnerability, you need to respond gently to small vulnerabilities. If you want someone to trust you with their biggest secrets, you first have to prove that you can protect their smaller ones. If you want someone to eventually say "I love you," you first have to create safety around the smaller expressions of affection, flirting, touch, and emotional closeness.

So I think the first thing to become aware of is your own receptiveness. Try paying more attention when someone is being vulnerable, even if it's something small or something you wouldn't normally recognize as vulnerability. Ask yourself: do you perhaps come across, even in subtle ways, as dismissive, overly critical, or difficult to open up to?

I remember, for example, in a previous relationship, if I ever expressed even a little jealousy, it was often subtly treated as "insecurity." It wasn't always said outright, but you could feel that atmosphere of annoyance, almost like, "Ugh, really?" Sometimes it even felt like my jealousy was appreciated only because it made them feel desired, rather than because they wanted to reassure or care for me. Experiences like that naturally teach someone to stop expressing those feelings.

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Another important factor is simple incompatibility. This might actually be even more fundamental.

If I think someone is likely to judge my lifestyle negatively, I often don't even bother sharing it because I expect it to turn into a debate. As a result, I come across as more closed off than I actually am. An obvious example would be meeting someone who is extremely judgmental, like a very conservative church lady who views any alternative lifestyle as morally wrong. You probably wouldn't want to share those parts of yourself because you'd expect to be misunderstood or condemned.

The easiest solution is often to surround yourself with people who are naturally compatible with the kind of life you want to live. But that raises another question: do you even know what kind of lifestyle you want? If not, it might be worth figuring that out first and then placing yourself in circles where people are more likely to share similar values.

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There's also the classic ego trap of "vulnerability for me, but not for thee."

Sometimes the ego isn't actually certain what it wants. Does it want commitment? Does it want commitment with this specific person? Is it ready to embrace this particular lifestyle? Commitment always involves giving something up, and the ego naturally resists that. The ego loves receiving vulnerability because it feels validating, special, and desired. Yet it often avoids being vulnerable because it isn't fully sure it wants to commit, reveal difficult truths, or risk rejection. Some parts of yourself have to be surrendered in exchange for genuine commitment. Other parts may simply be too important to compromise, even if that means risking the relationship.

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Another question worth asking is: what are you actually attracted to?

The classic meme of wanting an angel while constantly being attracted to a succubus. What kinds of people and environments are you repeatedly choosing? Which circles do you keep placing yourself in? Beliefs like, "It is shocking and heartbreaking to know how unconscious humanity is," can be defense mechanisms. They allow the ego to maintain a sense of superiority: I'm the honest, vulnerable, authentic one, while everyone else is unconscious...which your ego naturally loves to feel. It's especially gratifying if you can feel "superior" to the other person within the relationship. Of course, you probably aren't doing this consciously, but it's still worth examining. Why are you choosing the people you're choosing? Are you drawn to relationships where you can maintain a sense of being more emotionally aware, wiser, or more mature than the other person?

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Another important question is: what are you actually being vulnerable about?

I've heard people say they couldn't be vulnerable with their partner, but when I asked what they meant, they said they wanted to admit they still had feelings for an ex, had a crush on a coworker, or wanted to tell their partner they found them unattractive.

Some things aren't healthy vulnerability. They're simply inconsiderate or insensitive, even if they're framed as "I'm just being honest."

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Lastly, there's the numbers game.

At the end of the day, finding a genuine life partner can simply take time. The more specific your values, lifestyle, and aspirations are, the smaller your pool of compatible people becomes. This is especially true if you're highly self-aware or ambitious, since you're likely to keep growing and expect both yourself and your partner to grow as well. That naturally makes compatibility harder to find.

There's nothing wrong with that, but it comes with a cost. Couples with more conventional "normie" lifestyles may find it easier to stay together simply because they have fewer competing aspirations. That said, be careful that your "ambition" isn't just another way for the ego to avoid commitment.

If those aspirations are genuinely important to you, then the best approach is often to treat it as a numbers game: meet more people, put yourself in situations where you're likely to find compatible partners, stay receptive, and keep vetting until you find someone who truly fits.

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To find "True" Love is about overcoming the ego's games, both within yourself and in your relationships with others. Since other people are the trickier variable, and ultimately outside of your control, it's generally better to focus on examining yourself first.

Edited 2 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

There's a huge difference between dating/courting and being in a committed relationship. Two distinct phases. If you are dating for 5 years and have not moved past this phase - I think something is amiss. All relationships progress, evolve and change. Nothing remains the same. So there are 3 moving parts here - You as a person (that changes), your partner (also changes) and the relationship (also changes and evolves). At any one time, all three elements will need varying levels of care and attention.

I am personally of the opinion one should not be 100% vulnerable and open from the outset. When you are getting to know someone, it is a slow process. Our of necessity it probably won't be deep straight away. Like with small-talk - you are exchanging pennies back and forth. You don't know if you want to invest yet. As you continue to exchange pennies, you might decide to throw a dollar on the table and see how that goes - there's a bit more risk? But it's strategically calculated. No risk - no reward. After some time you realise it might be worth putting in a solid amount. But you can't know this straight away. You vet the person. You dance around them for a time - learning boundaries, navigating each other. You slowly learn about that person and update your model of them and decide if the relationship is worth it to continue opening up.

You do not know this person. It takes (in my opinion) years to know someone. And even then, I would never claim to know someone in totality. People can totally surprise you.

Once a safe bond has been developed with strong pillars of respect, individual autonomy, mutual care and affection - the gateways to real intimacy can form. Communication. Being seen. Being understood. Being loved and cared for. Feeling the ultimate connection with other. Breaking down the barriers between each party but still recognising each other as sovereign and residing in the CHOICE to be together.

Why do we view a slow vetting and opening up as some form of self betrayal - why is this not living our truth? After all, it is still you. All of it is you. Labelling anything '"fake" or "inauthentic" can be a rejection (and mostly is) of some part of ourselves....

This is a really important question.

Are you comfortable operating with strong boundaries? Are we comfortable relating to others without going straight to our most vulnerable parts? Is it all - or nothing? There is a real tension here where most people aren't comfortable operating outside this all or nothing belief: either we reveal everything and we have a "real connection" or I stay guarded - and the relationship is shallow. Fake. Good boundaries and vetting make deeper intimacy possible - safety is established. Less risk of being emotionally triggered. Clarity. No early overinvesting. Slow authenticity means we can safely reach the depths of the other person without risk they will reject our most vulnerable parts. Good boundaries mean we can hold space for the other person to be vulnerable; we aren't betraying any part of ourselves to be there in real connection with another. We aren't giving up attraction, or autonomy, or our sense of self. 

How are we identifying if someone is "higher consciousness" ? Is this even accurate? Is there a flaw in what we are looking for, that is blinding us to the potential in others? Mostly people view emotional openness, spiritual vocabulary, non-judgemental language, confidence/charisma and displays of vulnerability as higher consciousness. None of these actually indicate psychological maturity or wisdom. People speak eloquently about love, wholeness and unity and repeatedly violate boundaries.

Ultimately - I vet others actions against their words. And actions can only be assessed through a slower and longer term relational attitude than words. Talk is cheap. Actions marrying up to words communicates integrity and truth. A higher consciousness person to me, has high integrity. I look for compatibility, communication, integrity and aligned values. These are ingredients that I can work with so we can see what we can cook up together. You won't ever be certain you will create a delicious dessert - abandon this. Just see what comes out and make sure the ingredients are there in the quantities you require. I don't need the person to be spiritual. I enjoy contrast. They need to be willing to grow.

Compromise. No one will ever be perfect. They don't need to tick all our boxes. Explore contrasting people. 

Integrity and truth is not just something that happens between us. It happens within us. When we say we will do something, and don't do it. We lie to ourselves. We are dishonest to our values - and even if we don't openly acknowledge this, we are subconsciously communicating to ourselves "I am worthless" even if the thought never arrives. Self integrity and truth in this arena is far less common than anyone perceives. If you aren't operating from truth (words + actions aligning) you are lying to yourself and continually communicating to yourself through action you are worthless.

Assess yourself for co-dependency.

Consider that jumping in too quickly with vulnerability is an addiction to emotional high. Chasing states. Addictions happen within us - as well as outside us. 

This is not love.

This is really garbled and stream of consciousness writing - I make no edits or revisions. Apologies if it doesn't answer or is a bit loopy / repetitive. I felt like whatever came out as it is was more authentic and then questions can follow. I also missed a few talking points, this isn't an exhaustive take on the topic. It is huge.  

[Leo Gura]

Nah... a relationship based on LooksMaxxing and TokenMaxxing.

[LordFall]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nah... a relationship based on LooksMaxxing and TokenMaxxing.

My girl tries to look better for me continuously and uses AI to enrich both of our lives? That's a keeper. 

[Hojo]

@LordFall the cheap dates will be better than the expensive ones. Having money has nothing to do with 'enrichment' of dating lives.

The woman want you to blow bubble on her stomach and wrestle in the park with some food and a blanket.

Edited 1 hour ago by Hojo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Also not sure why - I really had a lot of trouble listening to the talk linked. Naftali Moses, correct?

This is just my cold vibe based read; he seems very unhealed. Very knowing. Very full. I felt like he was very attached to the role he was playing of the 'giver of advice, solutions' and I also sensed a bit of a saviour complex. I sense emotional avoidance within HIM, actually. Inability to go into victim. I feel like he may be fixated on control. Not sure why I felt this way. He seemed very shut down to alternative explanations to the ones he was presenting. He did not ask questions to explore the interviewers thinking and how she arrived at the conclusions she did. He simply told her his narrative was correct. Not sure, I felt something was off.

[Juan]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Nah... a relationship based on LooksMaxxing and TokenMaxxing.

Nah… a relationship based on ActualiMaxxing 

[LordFall]

50 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@LordFall the cheap dates will be better than the expensive ones. Having money has nothing to do with 'enrichment' of dating lives.

The woman want you to blow bubble on her stomach and wrestle in the park with some food and a blanket.

It can work but it's not really my desired lifestyle. I've had this type of two people struggling against the world romance and it was cute but I'm not really into that anymore. I want women to travel the world with me and help me build businesses and achieve impact. I am not really interested in wrestling in the park and blowing bubble unless it's in that context. If we wrestle in the park and go home and we're middle class people living mediocre and average lives I will dump her and focus on my grind and business until I can achieve the life I want. 

Dating while low income to me feels like two prisoners trying to date but why the fuck are you trying to date me, let's get out of this cell have the whole world and then we can be co-creators of a beautiful reality. Until then I need to work I cannot be distracted. 

I hanged out with a multimillionaire for around a year while I was working for him throwing events and it confirmed for me that being financially abundant is important to me. It confirmed each thought I had. Average people live in other people's sytems and have no control over their lives. To date in that context would be like if I'm a cuck to society and I can't enjoy my girlfriend or even myself. I need to be independent. Multiple flows of income. Living where I want. Working on the projects I want. Collaborating with whoever I want. Having the funds and access to also take part in the technological revolution we are living in today. Until I have achieved that life and can offer it as well to my dating partners I will be nowhere near satisfied. 

Edited 31 minutes ago by LordFall