Professor Dave goes off on Destiny and Israel 🇮🇱

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

You aren't factoring the main issue which is geographical. The West Bank is strategically located on high ground which cuts through the center of Israel. If a militarized Palestine + other Arab nations were to attack Israel from this vantage it would be basically impossible to defend. Yes, it would be an existential threat.

An agreement can include a de-militarized zone on the most fragile location that could indeed pose such a threat

There are many ways to make it work if Israel really wants

The reason they do not want is because they want all of Judea and Samaria cuz God gave it to them

Anything else is lame excuses

 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Desperate people are suicidal

If Palestinians get a state, they will stop being suicidal since there will be hope

They will continue to be desperate after they get their state. Because their state will be delusional, corrupt, weak, and vindictive.

You are assuming they will stop being suicidal. You are assuming that sitting in your armchair. But Israeli leadership will be demonized for the rest of history if they test that assumption and it proves false. Israeli leadership gave back Gaze to Hamas, and the result was Oct 7th.

Once bitten, twice shy. That is the whole Zionist motto. Their whole point is that they will not allow themselves to be screwed over again, like in WW2, by being too liberal.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

An agreement can include a de-militarized zone on the most fragile location that could indeed pose such a threat

There are many ways to make it work if Israel really wants

The reason they do not want is because they want all of Judea and Samaria cuz God gave it to them

Anything else is lame excuses

 

Yeah, a de-militarized zone... which really matters when a militarized nation on that land declares war on you. At least try to make sense.

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They will continue to be desperate after they get their state. Because their state will be delusional, corrupt, weak, and vindictive.

You are assuming they will stop being suicidal. You are assuming that sitting in your armchair

And why do you assume they will continue being suicidal? You are assuming as well as I am.  The majority of Palestinians live in the West Bank under the PLO which is not suicidal.

What I believe that new state will be, is another Jordan. Jordan already has like half of the population as Palestinians.

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But Israeli leadership will be demonized for the rest of history if they test that assumption and it proves false. Israeli leadership gave back Gaze to Hamas, and the result was Oct 7th.

Israeli leadership funded Hamas to weaken the more moderate Palestinian entities. They intentionally kept Palestinians ruled by the most radical factions to show they are too primitive to reason with. They did not act in good faith. Netanyahu has been caught on tape admitting this.

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Their whole point is that they will not allow themselves to be screwed over again, like in WW2, by being too liberal.

By not giving Palestine a state they will keep getting attacked. It is not like the status quo is working great for them

Edited 2 hours ago by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Yeah, a de-militarized zone... which really matters when a militarized nation on that land declares war on you. At least try to make sense.

You can have that area with an UN military base or Gulf country army base to keep Palestinians from using it. Or it can be some sort of border zone. You have such situations in other countries and it has worked out

 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

And why do you assume they will continue being suicidal? You are assuming as well as I am.

1) Because they demonstrate it with Oct 7th.

2) Because they say their goal is to annihilate Israel and take back all their stolen land.

3) Because their stage of development is so low: Purple/Red

4) Because they are deluded ideologues thanks to Islam.

These are not assumptions. Theses are facts with overwhelming historical evidence.

Meanwhile you have a fantasy of peaceful Palestinians. Because the liberal minds projects itself onto them.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because they demonstrate it with Oct 7th.

2) Because they say their goal is to annihilate Israel and take back all their stolen land.

3) Because their stage of development is so low: Purple/Red

4) Because they are deluded ideologues thanks to Islam.

These are not assumptions. Theses are facts with overwhelming historical evidence.

You are basically describing Hamas which is a minority of Palestinians

Majority of Palestinians live under PLO, which is none of those things

It is a Stage Blue nationalist movement that is not suicidal

Gaza is not Palestine

Palestine is Gaza plus West Bank

Putting them on red/purple is your opinion, I think they are mostly Blue with some Red when it comes to Hamas

These are not exact math

I think we fundamentally disagree on the level of development of Palestinian society

If you view Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank as overwhealmingly Stage Red, then all your points stand

If you view them mostly Blue like I do then they do not stand

"Meanwhile you have a fantasy of peaceful Palestinians. Because the liberal minds projects itself onto them."

I simply view them as more developed than you do which is why I believe them to be sane enough not to do a suicidal attack once they get a proper state

If Palestine was ONLY Gaza then I would consider your point a lot more

But I have not seen anything from West Bank to show me they are suicidal

Also I do not view them as peaceful. Just not suicidal

I dont expect them to allow Israelis to travel or work in the new Palestinian state if they get one.

Also I am indeed liberal but not libtard. I come off as somewhat too left here but in real life in other topics I am more reasonable that I may appear here

Sorry for that

Edited 2 hours ago by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

You are basically describing Hamas which is a minority of Palestinians

Minority rules, not the majority.

A radical Islamic minority will hijack any Palestinian state. That's the whole problem with why you can't give them a state.

Quote

It is a Stage Blue nationalist movement that is not suicidal

That's way too optimistic.

Quote

I simply view them as more developed than you do

Yes. That's the problem. Leftists over-estimate human development, again, the liberal mind projecting itself and failing to recognize it.

Everyone is less developed than you assume.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura

[AION]

Palestinians got radicalized by Israeli terror after decades. I think we have to keep that into consideration. This one sided Israeli perspective is the reason why there is war. 

Edited 2 hours ago by AION

[coca]

@Leo Gura “Israeli military actions have killed more than 74,000 Palestinians, while Palestinian attacks have killed more than 2,000 Israelis in the war that began in October 2023”. [wikipedia]

“In 2005, Israel carried out a unilateral withdrawal, known as the Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip, removing all military forces and dismantling 21 Jewish settlements. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon initiated the plan to improve national security, reduce military costs, ease friction with the dense Palestinian population, and break a diplomatic stalemate” [iemu.org]

 

How would you incorporate these statistics into your position?

[Karmadhi]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes. That's the problem. Leftists over-estimate human development, again, the liberal mind projecting itself and failing to recognize it.

Everyone is less developed than you assume.

When it comes to Israel it is the opposite

I view them as less developed than you do

Just saying

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, AION said:

Palestinians got radicalized by Israeli terror after decades.

And the radicalization of Israeli far Right-wing is just a given and has nothing to do with terror attacks of course.

Edited 1 hour ago by Nivsch

[Majed]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

3) Because their stage of development is so low: Purple/Red

@Leo Gura I'm stunned how people do not see the utter regressiveness of Palestinians and the Islamic world in general. Just have a serious conversation with any Muslim and you'll see how their entire belief system hinges on nothing, yet they base their entire lifestyle on it. Which is the epitome of stupidity. 

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

When it comes to Israel it is the opposite

I view them as less developed than you do

I have a realistic view of their development.

It just so happens Palestinians are even less developed than that. There is much lower development than Blue/Orange.

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have a realistic view of their development.

It just so happens Palestinians are even less developed than that. There is much lower development than Blue/Orange.

This may be true but it’s only because Palestine has suffered nearly a full century of abuse, oppression, humiliation and massacres at the hands of the Israelis. You abuse any group long enough and eventually theyll lash out.

I mean shit, look at Egypt or Syria. These countries have very similar cultures to the Palestinians, yet for the most part they’re much less desperate and radical precisely because they haven’t been humiliated for so long. I mean Syria itself has just gone through a brutal 15 year civil war yet even that wasn’t enough to break their spirit, because at the end of the day they managed to keep their country while Palestinians didnt.

It’s basically unimaginable how humiliating the Palestinians feel. Even highly troubled counties like Nigeria have a greater sense of dignity than they do, despite the amount of ethnic tensions, corruption etc in their country. What Israelis put Palestinians through each day is twisted.

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

This may be true but it’s only because Palestine has suffered nearly a full century of abuse, oppression, humiliation and massacres at the hands of the Israelis.

Yes, however:

1) The entire Middle East lacks development, of their own making, independent of the West. You cannot blame most of their underdevleopment on the West. Their underdevelopment is home-grown and hitched to Islam's regressiveness and ideology.

2) Even so, you cannot expect today's Israeli politicians to sit back and allow vindictive Arabs to just slaughter them. That's not how politics works. You are expecting a level of selflessness from Israelis which they are incapable of. It is like you are expecting a grizzly bear to just sit back while you slap him across the face. For sure the grizzly bear will over-react. And you will scream, "But it's not fair! All I did was slap him." But the grizzly bear does not care about your ideas of fairness.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[coca]

@Leo Gura But if the grizzly bear over reacts, do the Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves from the over reaction? Wouldn’ disregarding someone’s moral system make them more likely to “Pull a gun out of their coat”?

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, coca said:

do the Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves from the over reaction?

That is not a matter of rights, that's a matter of raw power.

You can try to fight a grizzly bear, but you will lose that fight.

The Israel-Palestine situation is not going to be resolved with moral grand-standing. It will be resolved through raw exercise of power. Which is exactly what you are seeing in the news.

Edited 59 minutes ago by Leo Gura

[coca]

@Leo Gura Unless you managed to pull a gun from your coat? It is possible for Palestine to diplomatically aggregate enough man-power to defend themselves from Israel

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, coca said:

@Leo Gura Unless you managed to pull a gun from your coat? It is possible for Palestine to diplomatically aggregate enough man-power to defend themselves from Israel

In a war between Palestine and Israel, Israel will win. There is no question about that.

Don't provoke the bear.

Edited 25 minutes ago by Leo Gura