Professor Dave goes off on Destiny and Israel 🇮🇱

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But it's not equal. Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine. It's a sick deliberate project.

What makes this situation so confusing is that the higher developed people are trying to exterminate the less developed people. That's counter-intuitive. You'd expect the opposite.

Yes, of course.

But then there's understanding why others are misunderstanding. Which bias obstructs the understanding of.

That's because the Israelis believe that if the tables were turned they would be the ones ethnically cleansed. From the day the state was founded the goal was for the surrounding Arab states to invade and wipe out the Jews. Those same surrounding Arab states ethnically cleansed the Jews in their own nations, so this threat is not theoretical.

Unfortunately it is a zero-sum game. Israelis and Jews in general hear "from the river to the sea" and take it literally. 

Quote

It is 1 side fighting for greed and 1 for survival

They are both fighting for survival, that is what is misunderstood.

I'm not justifying genocide or the way this conflict has turned at all. I'm saying this "isn't that weird" perspective isn't really that weird at all. The British promised the Jews a state there, they negotiated for a two state with the other locals who had no sovereign nation there. They did not agree, a war broke out. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians left believing the Arab states would roll in and destroy all the Jews. They failed to do so. They tried again and again and again, they failed to do so.

Now we want to act like the Jews there are just being paranoid and becoming increasingly hostile for no reason. Decades of this conflict has hardened each side. Neither side wants a one state solution which is inclusive of both parties. That is a pipe dream. Since neither side will agree to leave, it has become a zero sum game and fight to the death. This is the sad reality of the situation.

The only other outcome which could save it is a two state solution, but even the leftists themselves have abandoned it. They want a one state solution called "Palestine" where Palestinians are the majority and magically everyone lives happily ever after. They are completely delusional.

[Raze]

43 minutes ago, hundreth said:

That's because the Israelis believe that if the tables were turned they would be the ones ethnically cleansed. From the day the state was founded the goal was for the surrounding Arab states to invade and wipe out the Jews. Those same surrounding Arab states ethnically cleansed the Jews in their own nations, so this threat is not theoretical.

This is a myth. We have declassified documents of the Arab armies and there isn’t any evidence they had military plans to “wipe out” Jews. In fact when they took control of areas they either just restricted movements of Jews or let them evacuate safely. If that was the goal they would have done things like what israel had been doing the in the nakba, organized ethnic cleansing of civilians, and they had already begun this before any Arab army entered.

Its also a moot point, for decades now no Arab state attacked israel and they all offered full normalization if they simply stop occupying Palestine, israel refuses.

43 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians left believing the Arab states would roll in and destroy all the Jews. They failed to do so. They tried again and again and again, they failed to do so.
 

Again this is a myth. The Zionist had already begun mass killing to make a Jewish state by force, see deir yassin. Palestinians didn’t leave, they were expelled, thousands were killed and Israel literally used biological warfare. The Arab armies actually tried to force them to stay in many cases but zionists were literally going from village to village wiping their villages out.

The Palestinian weren’t demanding Arab states wipe out Jews, they were hoping the Arab states would save them from the invaders trying to steal their homeland. Israel’s demand for a “Jewish state” was literally demanding the majority of the country with hundreds of thousands living on it leave and hand it over to them for their racial project.

43 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Now we want to act like the Jews there are just being paranoid and becoming increasingly hostile for no reason. Decades of this conflict has hardened each side. Neither side wants a one state solution which is inclusive of both parties. That is a pipe dream. Since neither side will agree to leave, it has become a zero sum game and fight to the death. This is the sad reality of the situation.

The only other outcome which could save it is a two state solution, but even the leftists themselves have abandoned it. They want a one state solution called "Palestine" where Palestinians are the majority and magically everyone lives happily ever after. They are completely delusional.

The problem is liberal zionists are also enable genocide. They happily supported israel and arming them while they built more and more settlements on Palestinian land, the settlements are there for the express purpose of making two states impossible. 

The “two states” you’re demanding is impossible because you want hundreds of thousands of armed Jewish supremacist settlers to be part of Israel in their settlements placed specifically in palestine to tear apart the country and refuse to force israel to remove them. The situation would barely be different from now, they’d have the same idf border guards restricting their movements around all the settlements on their country.

The reason things shifted to one state is because it became clear the Zionist plan was to keep saying they want two states, while slowly installing more illegal settlers, then tormenting the Palestinians until they revolt, then using that as justification to commit genocidal atrocities hoping to wipe them out. That’s why Netanyahu was trying to get the US to strong arm the Arab states into normalizing with Israel without ending the occupation. 

So the idea is to simply demand israel live up to its claims it’s a western style democracy and stop occupying millions of people without rights because you only want a majority of Jews to have power. That excuse worked for boomers because they saw the history of Jews as a minority and projected it onto Israel, but zoomers instead are seeing the history of Israel using that exact power imbalance and same actions on the Palestinians and don’t buy the argument anymore.

Edited 7 hours ago by Raze

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What makes this situation so confusing is that the higher developed people are trying to exterminate the less developed people. That's counter-intuitive. You'd expect the opposite.

On the contrary that’s actually what usually happens. For example Spain and Latin America. Europeans and the native Americans. Pacification of Algeria. Congo free state.

Edited 7 hours ago by Raze

[Stick]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But it's not equal. Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine. It's a sick deliberate project.

What makes this situation so confusing is that the higher developed people are trying to exterminate the less developed people. That's counter-intuitive. You'd expect the opposite.

 

I get that.
Of course Israel is extremely evil.
But what I meant was that even such a sentiment is not deep enough in understanding.
Many people on the left (like hasan piker) support EVERY enemy of israel .
Many voices on the left downplay or simply ignore the suffering inflicted by countries like iran to dozens of thousands of protesters and celebrate when iran bombs israel.
Almost 99 percent of people that talk about israel and palestein have no fucking understanding of the situation and simply have a emotional opinion.
To properly cure the problem you need people that see the disease (tribalism, nationalism) instead of picking the losing tribe out of empathy and calling it a day.
(I am cherry picking left because I expect them to be more developed). 
 

[hundreth]

48 minutes ago, Raze said:

This is a myth. We have declassified documents of the Arab armies and there isn’t any evidence they had military plans to “wipe out” Jews. In fact when they took control of areas they either just restricted movements of Jews or let them evacuate safely. If that was the goal they would have done things like what israel had been doing the in the nakba, organized ethnic cleansing of civilians, and they had already begun this before any Arab army entered.

Its also a moot point, for decades now no Arab state attacked israel and they all offered full normalization if they simply stop occupying Palestine, israel refuses.

What does "simply stop occupying Palestine" mean? If it is no further expansion or greenlighting a two state solution, sure. But I don't think that's what it is. 

Also, Iran very openly declares they want to annihilate Israel.

Quote

Again this is a myth. The Zionist had already begun mass killing to make a Jewish state by force, see deir yassin. Palestinians didn’t leave, they were expelled, thousands were killed and Israel literally used biological warfare. The Arab armies actually tried to force them to stay in many cases but zionists were literally going from village to village wiping their villages out.

The Palestinian weren’t demanding Arab states wipe out Jews, they were hoping the Arab states would save them from the invaders trying to steal their homeland. Israel’s demand for a “Jewish state” was literally demanding the majority of the country with hundreds of thousands living on it leave and hand it over to them for their racial project.

Those early Zionists weren't as centrally organized as they are today. You had different factions behaving in vastly different ways. 

As for Israel's demand for a Jewish state, this was part of a two state negotiation over at the time British land post WW2 where the most giant chunk of land was already given to Jordan. Within Palestine itself, the Jews had already agreed to less than half of the land, so then how were they demanding the majority of the country leave? That is just false. The Palestinians were only open to having 100% of the land, and so war broke out and they lost. 
 

Quote

The problem is liberal zionists are also enable genocide. They happily supported israel and arming them while they built more and more settlements on Palestinian land, the settlements are there for the express purpose of making two states impossible. 

The “two states” you’re demanding is impossible because you want hundreds of thousands of armed Jewish supremacist settlers to be part of Israel in their settlements placed specifically in palestine to tear apart the country and refuse to force israel to remove them. The situation would barely be different from now, they’d have the same idf border guards restricting their movements around all the settlements on their country.

The reason things shifted to one state is because it became clear the Zionist plan was to keep saying they want two states, while slowly installing more illegal settlers, then tormenting the Palestinians until they revolt, then using that as justification to commit genocidal atrocities hoping to wipe them out. That’s why Netanyahu was trying to get the US to strong arm the Arab states into normalizing with Israel without ending the occupation. 

So the idea is to simply demand israel live up to its claims it’s a western style democracy and stop occupying millions of people without rights because you only want a majority of Jews to have power. That excuse worked for boomers because they saw the history of Jews as a minority and projected it onto Israel, but zoomers instead are seeing the history of Israel using that exact power imbalance and same actions on the Palestinians and don’t buy the argument anymore.

 

What do you mean the two states I demand wants x,y,z? How do you know what I want? 

I believe there is a path towards two states, but its not commonly spoken about as an option. The cleanest idea IMO is to leave the settlers within areas designated as Palestinian land. There could be certain groups, both Palestinian and Jewish who live under each other's borders with dual citizenship and special status. The settlers could be part of that, but they would not be entitled to their own police force or security perimeter. They would live under Palestinian law. If they don't like it, they should move back to Israel proper.

I think that is the simplest path forward. 

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

On the contrary that’s actually what usually happens. For example Spain and Latin America. Europeans and the native Americans. Pacification of Algeria. Congo free state.

This

Spiral dynamics / developmental models can be too reductive or used simplistically

Development can be domain specific and also doesn’t erase or delete human nature

Israel can have F35s, pride parades and ethnically cleanse at the same time - common denominator being: human

“Stage green” Fernando can go into red rage over who ate the last lentil in the commune too lol

Developed industrial capacity only enables more brutality once tribalism/survival/ego kicks in as it usually/eventually does in the world unless we all bhudda max

Edited 6 hours ago by zazen

[Nivsch]

21 hours ago, Raze said:

No, polls found the majority of Israelis supported genocide and Israelis held protests in support of idf on video committing rape.

Don't be surprised to hear again some Israelis think terrible things about Palestinians when you describe Israelis in a very similar way. 

Edited 3 hours ago by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

This is a myth

This is what most Israelis believe, whether this is true or half-true this doesn't matter.

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Palestine. It's a sick deliberate project.

One of the key claims of the Right-wing is that every time we evacuated land, the terror has increased because Palestinians want all the land for them and won't compromise on anything.

[hundreth]

58 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

This is what most Israelis believe, whether this is true or half-true this doesn't matter.

Yes, we also cannot know what would have happened. @Raze believes in this childish notion that the Palestinians or Arabs would never do anything to harm the Jews. They are perfectly innocent and do no wrong in every scenario.

Jews, especially after WW2 will never take that risk. Nevermind that Arabs literally did ethnically cleanse the Jews from neighboring nations. But oh, that's okay because Jews from Europe did something bad Zionist blah blah. So then it doesn't count, right??

[Raze]

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Yes, we also cannot know what would have happened. @Raze believes in this childish notion that the Palestinians or Arabs would never do anything to harm the Jews. They are perfectly innocent and do no wrong in every scenario.

Jews, especially after WW2 will never take that risk. Nevermind that Arabs literally did ethnically cleanse the Jews from neighboring nations. But oh, that's okay because Jews from Europe did something bad Zionist blah blah. So then it doesn't count, right??

Palestinians and the Arabs, did take that risk. Palestinians lived with a Jewish minority just fine, the Arab states as well were some of the safest countries for Jews for centuries. Initially they didn’t even resist the Jewish migration to Palestine. Even when they started resisting they initially tried diplomatic pressure. 

What was the result? The destruction of Palestinian society, the survivors doomed to a century of persecution, and a state of terror that would launch attacks, assassinations and lobby for sanctions ruining hundreds of thousands of lives in the Middle East. 

Only for all that context to be ignored, to be demonized for whatever response they actually did end up having, and used as a justification for more oppression and war, because historical context only matters when it justifies what Jews do. 

It’s ironic because even the pioneering zionists would acknowledge that Palestinian aggression is a completely rational response to their actions.

Quote

Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing-“

-Vladimir Jabotinsky

Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves… politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.”

David Ben-Gurion

“Let us not cast blame on the murderers today. Why should we complain about their fierce hatred for us? For eight years they have sat in the refugee camps of Gaza, and before their eyes we have transformed into our homestead the land and villages in which they and their fathers dwelt.”

Moshe Dayan

Yet somehow it’s never mentioned when it comes to Palestinians, and their actions must be condemned always.

Meanwhile everything israel does is justified because Arab states expelled Jews 80 years ago so somehow that’s why we should forever assume they have intentions to genocide Jews and thus are obligated to sympathize with Israel rejecting peace offers from those same states and letting settlers go on pogroms and openly boast about trying to expel Palestinians 

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

What does "simply stop occupying Palestine" mean? If it is no further expansion or greenlighting a two state solution, sure. But I don't think that's what it is. 

Also, Iran very openly declares they want to annihilate Israel.

The Arab peace initiative called for a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders (this is in line with international law) and a “just solution” on the right of return to be negotiated.

 

Iran isn’t an Arab state. Iran was doing nothing but sending money to small militant groups that only exist because of the occupation, Iran never even attacked any country directly until israel began directly bombing it and trying to topple it. 

If that’s justified every attack Palestinians have ever done on israel is justified because their leaders not only call to destroy Palestine, they’re actually actively doing it. 
 

And Irans destroy israel statements were always overblown, Khomenei said it would be destroyed with time, and Khamenei also said he was against a war to destroy Israel. The idea it was some military goal and plan is baseless.

Edited 4 hours ago by Raze

[hundreth]

27 minutes ago, Raze said:

Palestinians and the Arabs, did take that risk. Palestinians lived with a Jewish minority just fine, the Arab states as well were some of the safest countries for Jews for centuries. Initially they didn’t even resist the Jewish migration to Palestine. Even when they started resisting they initially tried diplomatic pressure. 

What was the result? The destruction of Palestinian society, the survivors doomed to a century of persecution, and a state of terror that would launch attacks, assassinations and lobby for sanctions ruining hundreds of thousands of lives in the Middle East. 

Only for all that context to be ignored, to be demonized for whatever response they actually did end up having, and used as a justification for more oppression and war, because historical context only matters when it justifies what Jews do. 

It’s ironic because even the pioneering zionists would acknowledge that Palestinian aggression is a completely rational response to their actions.

Yet somehow it’s never mentioned when it comes to Palestinians, and their actions must be condemned always.

Meanwhile everything israel does is justified because Arab states expelled Jews 80 years ago so somehow that’s why we should forever assume they have intentions to genocide Jews and thus are obligated to sympathize with Israel rejecting peace offers from those same states and letting settlers go on pogroms and openly boast about trying to expel Palestinians 

The Arab peace initiative called for a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders (this is in line with international law) and a “just solution” on the right of return to be negotiated.

 

Iran isn’t an Arab state. Iran was doing nothing but sending money to small militant groups that only exist because of the occupation, Iran never even attacked any country directly until israel began directly bombing it and trying to topple it. 

If that’s justified every attack Palestinians have ever done on israel is justified because their leaders not only call to destroy Palestine, they’re actually actively doing it. 
 

And Irans destroy israel statements were always overblown, Khomenei said it would be destroyed with time, and Khamenei also said he was against a war to destroy Israel. The idea it was some military goal and plan is baseless.

Mischaracterization of history. Palestinians were not in the position to decide whether Jews came to the land or not. The British were. The Palestinians did not take this risk Lol. This is cartoonish. Jews came to the land to flee persecution, not as part of a political movement. They lived in relative peace. Later, a political movement shaped a new conflict, and a war ensued. Those are different circumstances. You can't say things would be the same before and after a literal war. 

Now you're trying to paint this picture like Palestinians themselves uniquely cared about welcoming Jews and in response they were destroyed. No. The British promised the Jews land there, there were negotiations for how to split it. Jews said yes to a minority of the land with no ill will towards Palestinians. Palestinians said no under any circumstances and launched a war. They lost. Jews have no unique hatred or resentment towards Palestinians. They just wanted a home and safe place to live. 

As for the Arab peace initiative, it is always the right of return that is the sticking point. I mean I'd agree with you that even without that the crazies in power in Israel today wouldn't agree, but I don't think that was always the case. I'd personally agree with you on 1967 borders and would be fine with it minus the right to return. Also certainly not everything Israel does is justified.

 

 

[Heaven]

@Raze My grand parents from Iraq were forced to convert to Islam and escaped with nothing to Israel to avoid death penalty.

As an Israeli I strongly believe that if we had an open border Hezbaolla, Palastinians from the West Bank and Gazans would try to make as much damage as possible in order to kill as many Israelis. October 7th is an example that strengthens my belief.

“From the river to the sea” is actually their moto.

Edited 1 hour ago by Heaven

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, hundreth said:

They are both fighting for survival, that is what is misunderstood.

I am sure in the past they did.

I am referring to now, today.

No 5 Arab armies are attacking Israel, it is just Hamas that is too weak to seriously threaten Israel.

Same with Hezbollah.

The issue is that Israel is taking more and more land in the West Bank unopposed, and kicking out thousands of people

That is the reality we are facing today

You referr to reality of 1948 or 1967, but that is totally different today.

Today basically we have an Israel state that is unhappy with 1967 borders but wants more land in what they call "Judea and Samaria" because they believe it is given to them by God

They want more

Hence greed.

Nobody is seriously critizing Israel defending its 1948 or 1967 borders

Issue is when you fight to get more land

https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-2100-west-bank-settlement-housing-units-advance-in-planning-process/

This is what I mean

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Heaven said:

As an Israeli I strongly believe that if we had an open border Hezbaolla, Palastinians from the West Bank and Gazans would try to make as much damage as possible in order to kill as many Israelis. October 7th is an example that strengthens my belief.

I am sure if Palestine got a proper state and Lebanon got its land back, all sides would chill out and only the most radical elements would remain

Which can be eliminated

But most of the anger comes from lack of statehood

Why is Israel so afraid of a Palestinian state?

I am sure they can handle it in a war, the power difference is too big to worry

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

One of the key claims of the Right-wing is that every time we evacuated land, the terror has increased because Palestinians want all the land for them and won't compromise on anything.

I think half measures cause this

A full measure would calm things down

The only example they give is Gaza in 2005 but that was not a proper state, it was a half measure

A full measure would be something similar to Kosovo or the states that emegered from the USSR after it collapsed

I feel a proper Palestinian state would calm down the majority and the loud radical minority would either be eliminated from the internal pressure

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I am sure in the past they did.

I am referring to now, today.

No 5 Arab armies are attacking Israel, it is just Hamas that is too weak to seriously threaten Israel.

Same with Hezbollah.

The issue is that Israel is taking more and more land in the West Bank unopposed, and kicking out thousands of people

That is the reality we are facing today

You referr to reality of 1948 or 1967, but that is totally different today.

Today basically we have an Israel state that is unhappy with 1967 borders but wants more land in what they call "Judea and Samaria" because they believe it is given to them by God

They want more

Hence greed.

Nobody is seriously critizing Israel defending its 1948 or 1967 borders

Issue is when you fight to get more land

https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-2100-west-bank-settlement-housing-units-advance-in-planning-process/

This is what I mean

 

I agree with you. Israel is still operating under that same mentality and biting off way more than they can chew. 

For awhile it was war. Then it became a standstill. Neither side agrees to the terms of the other. They have an endless cycle of hurting another. Endless cycles of hate building. This is the tragic outcome. 

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, hundreth said:

agree with you. Israel is still operating under that same mentality and biting off way more than they can chew. 

For awhile it was war. Then it became a standstill. Neither side agrees to the terms of the other. They have an endless cycle of hurting another. Endless cycles of hate building. This is the tragic outcome. 

The issue is taking land, not repelling an invasion

Especially when the land theft is in the West Bank where there is no real existential threat nor October 7th attack

It has been going on for many many years and it is done so slowly and carefully that you do not feel it until it is too late

Boiled frog theory

Also when you actually talk with people that are in favour or support this land grab, they usually use religion or God or the Bible as a reason for it

As an atheist I cannot relate to this and hence am very critical.

It seems like half the country is on board with this either directly or by voting for parties that are on board with this 

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi