Professor Dave goes off on Destiny and Israel 🇮🇱

[Leo Gura]

Of course Zionism is bullshit.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you want to take that road, then you can't complain about anything ever, because people are just surviving.

I agree that my government's actions can't be covered under survival claims, but even regular liberal or moderate citizens have memories of terror attacks and exploded buses in their cities and therefore developed over many years a different and more rubast coding in their brains on Gaza and the West Bank than in almost any other realm of life, regardless of their development.

Edited yesterday at 08:31 AM by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

When I saw the video of Chris Hedges you added back then of just I don't want to say the word but just relating to Israel in such an inhumane and generalized way when the woman with Keffiyeh welcome him to the podium and for me this still feels like the symbol of those attacks since I was a child. To see this felt horrible for me in the way that like what happened to them that switched the sides in such an unjust way. I am not entering the complex discussion now but this was my raw feeling.

Nothing personal on you Leo of course.

Edited yesterday at 09:37 AM by Nivsch

[Raze]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

When I saw the video of Chris Hedges you added back then of just I don't want to say the word but just relating to Israel in such an inhumane and generalized way way when the woman with Keffiyeh welcome him to the podium and for me this still feels like the symbol of those attacks since I was a child. To see this felt horrible for me.

The existence of attacks and its effects on the psyche do not remove the necessity of understanding why they occur by assuming they are innately unjust and the victims of said attacks given free permission to do anything.

Many pioneering zionists and former Israeli officials have themselves said attacks are expected reactions to their actions and they’d do the same in the same position. 

If a Palestinian said someone wearing a Star of David felt horrible you’d be saying they’re antisemitic and use it as evidence of irrational hostility.

Edited yesterday at 09:33 AM by Raze

[hundreth]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course Zionism is bullshit.

To most Jews Zionism is just the belief in a Jewish state.

The demonization of that in present day society is one of the most extreme reactions I've seen. Equivocating that to Nazism, etc.

There are 6-8 official "Islamic" nations. There are 23 nations where the official religion is Islam. There are millions and even billions who believe this should be the case. They are not designated Nazis.

These nations all have histories filled with violence and conquest.

I'm not excusing present day Israel's actions, and if there are initiatives to expand and take more land, we should call those out. But because of the roots of a movement 100 years ago, the two ideas have become interlinked. Colonialism and the belief in a Jewish State. Some say they can't be separated, but we would not apply that standard to any other country.

If you are pro United States or believe in the country as a whole, no one would claim you are a colonialist. No one would say anyone with ties to America is pro ethnic cleansing because of the nation's history or even what they are currently doing around the world. Yet this is what happens today to anyone with ties to Israel.

Now you may not agree with the idea of a Jewish state, and claim you apply that universally to all religious or ethno states. You believe in secular ideals, fine. Sure. But this ignores the reality of the world and the region. This is the holy land. This utopian idea, that if not for Zionism there would be one secular state. It is complete nonsense. 

Almost no one living in the region wants that, neither Israeli or Palestinian. 
 

The 2024 joint PCPSR/Tel Aviv University poll found:

Palestinians

40% - two states

33% - one Palestinian-dominated state with limited rights for Jews

25% - one democratic state with equal rights

Israeli Jews

21% - two states

42% - annexation/one state without equal Palestinian rights

14% - one democratic state with equal rights  

But there’s newer Palestinian polling.

A 2025 PCPSR poll that explicitly made respondents choose among three alternatives found:

47% - two states
18% - Israeli-Palestinian confederation
12% - one state with Jews and Palestinians living equally
24% - don’t know/no answer.  

And Arab Barometer’s October 2025 polling is even more striking: 59% of Palestinians preferred two states, while one state was in the single digits. In Gaza specifically, support for two states was 64%.  

SO yeah, no one wants that. The Palestinians themselves would rather each side have their own ethno state with self determination, rather than this Western bullshit ideal that was projected onto the region. 

 

[Human Mint]

A wise israeli leaves Israel.

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

To most Jews Zionism is just the belief in a Jewish state.

Yeah, and clearly not to take "more" land as the Likud and parties further to the right want. I have never been educated on the notion that Palestinians don't belong to this land too.

Edited 23 hours ago by Nivsch

[hundreth]

37 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Yeah, and clearly not to take "more" land as the Likud and parties further to the right want. I have never been educated on the notion that Palestinians don't belong to this land too.

The outside world doesn't realize that Israelis are mostly educated to view all these wars as defensive and to be in the pursuit of peace. Much like how Americans are educated that all wars are for "Freedom" or "democracy." These governments all behave insanely, but Americans generally believe the nation represents a force for good in the world as an example. At least until recently. 

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The outside world doesn't realize that Israelis are mostly educated to view all these wars as defensive and to be in the pursuit of peace. Much like how Americans are educated that all wars are for "Freedom" or "democracy." These governments all behave insanely, but Americans generally believe the nation represents a force for good in the world as an example. At least until recently. 

Exactly, and it is so frustrating.

[Human Mint]

@Nivsch Did you have to do militar service?

[Leo Gura]

Zionism is a vast worldview. It's a whole identity. Like being a Nazi is an identity. It is not just belief in a German state.

Edited 14 hours ago by Leo Gura

[PolyPeter]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Zionism is a vast worldview. It's a whole identity. Like being a Nazi is an identity. It is not just belief in a German state.

are you not flattening the entire thing? 

Nazi identity and Zionism identity share the fact that are both identities.

But one of them seems far worse.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, PolyPeter said:

But one of them seems far worse.

They both devolve into toxic nationalism.

Both are Stage Blue.

The comparsion is not superficial but important, especially for Zionists to recognize.

Don't forget that most Nazis are mundane, average people. Not violent monsters.

The average MAGA, Israeli settler, and Nazi are the same kind of person, just different flavors.

Edited 13 hours ago by Leo Gura

[PolyPeter]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Both are Stage Blue.

sure but stage blue toxic nationalism covers a lot, hindu, turkish, russian, arguably palestinian nationalism too.

so why nazism as the comparison and not any of those? is it a pedagogical cherry-pick of some sorts?

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, PolyPeter said:

sure but stage blue toxic nationalism covers a lot, hindu, turkish, russian, arguably palestinian nationalism too.

Sure.

Quote

so why nazism as the comparison and not any of those? is it a pedagogical cherry-pick of some sorts?

Because for Jews this is a particularly potent comparison.

To become Good you must see how you are being evil.

It is ironic that Zionists rationalize their crimes by talking about how evil Nazis were.

Edited 13 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure.

Because for Jews this is a particularly potent comparison.

To become Good you must see how you are being evil.

It is ironic that Zionists rationalize their crimes by talking about how evil Nazis were.

Jews have always been persecuted for centuries by everyone else who aren't them.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Jews have always been persecuted for centuries by everyone else who aren't them.

So what? We don't allow minorities to run around terrorizing people.

[PolyPeter]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

To become Good you must see how you are being evil.

100%!! 

[hundreth]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure.

Because for Jews this is a particularly potent comparison.

To become Good you must see how you are being evil.

It is ironic that Zionists rationalize their crimes by talking about how evil Nazis were.

But like I said, most Jews equate Zionism to the belief in a Jewish state. Not colonialism, not ethnic cleansing, not jewish superiority, not greater Israel, not any of this other stuff.

So when the attack vector is "Zionism" it pushes away many Jews who would otherwise fight for human decency. 

I feel like there needs to be another word for the truly horrific aspects of Israeli policy outside of the jewish state identity. Because having a religious or ethnic identity is common around the world. 

So you end up with many Jews rightfully calling this out as anti-semitism because it is the Jewish state being singled out. 

Then you have this bullshit that Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. They pretend that the land of Israel isn't integral to Jewish teachings or tradition. That because there's a tiny minority of Jews who believe that Jews shouldn't be in Israel now, but only after the messiah returns, that Judaism and the land of Israel aren't inherently linked. It's insane. 

Now I'm not saying that's a reason to take another people's land. And given the same scenario today, I don't think it would have happened or should have. But post WW2, it did happen. Now we want to make up bullshit and pretend the two don't go together.

Western progressives at least need to come to terms with reality. Even the Palestinians have more of an understanding re: the Jewish connection to the land. 

[Raze]

42 minutes ago, hundreth said:

But like I said, most Jews equate Zionism to the belief in a Jewish state. Not colonialism, not ethnic cleansing, not jewish superiority, not greater Israel, not any of this other stuff.

So when the attack vector is "Zionism" it pushes away many Jews who would otherwise fight for human decency. 

I feel like there needs to be another word for the truly horrific aspects of Israeli policy outside of the jewish state identity. Because having a religious or ethnic identity is common around the world. 

So you end up with many Jews rightfully calling this out as anti-semitism because it is the Jewish state being singled out. 

Then you have this bullshit that Zionism has nothing to do with Judaism. They pretend that the land of Israel isn't integral to Jewish teachings or tradition. That because there's a tiny minority of Jews who believe that Jews shouldn't be in Israel now, but only after the messiah returns, that Judaism and the land of Israel aren't inherently linked. It's insane. 

Now I'm not saying that's a reason to take another people's land. And given the same scenario today, I don't think it would have happened or should have. But post WW2, it did happen. Now we want to make up bullshit and pretend the two don't go together.

Western progressives at least need to come to terms with reality. Even the Palestinians have more of an understanding re: the Jewish connection to the land. 

- the founder of Zionism Theodore Herzl drafted a letter to South African colonists discussing how his movement was similar and he envisioned it as “something colonial”

- Its not antisemitic to be against a Jewish state, just like it’s not anti-white to be against a white nationalist state. You’ve repeatedly posted the nonsense that there are more Muslim counties as though it’s similar, it isn’t. The Muslim countries don’t occupy millions of the indigenous people who aren’t given human rights based on their ethnicity while actively settling the land with foreign Muslims who have rights for the stated reason of ethno nationalist expansion. Also those countries are considered backwards dictatorships in the west and no one says you are denying Muslims connection to the land or being anti-Muslim if you criticize their human rights abuses by themselves, israel demands everyone acknowledge how western and democratic they are and accuses everyone criticizing their abuses of antisemitism.

- The land being holy in Judaism is irrelevant to Zionisms relation to Judaism, it is holy regardless of the nature of the state, nothing is inherent in Judaism that the land needs to be a Jewish supremacist state, it was holy for thousands of years with Jews on it prior to Zionism. The pioneering zionists were atheists.

- The primary issue is not denying Jewish “connection to the land”, it’s Palestinians being denied human rights on their own land by the Israeli occupation and its enablers. Israel was actually supported by the left wing in the west for decades and they just used that as pretext to expand and spread propaganda to delegitimize Palestinians. Zionists to this day are constantly saying Palestinians don’t exist.

Edited 2 hours ago by Raze