Leo's perspective on suicide?

[Joshe]

31 minutes ago, cetus said:

 Sorry, but that's not true. What is true is you're teetering on getting a warning for being closed minded.

Excuse me? You're telling me I'm lying? I've witnessed it on multiple occasions, and I don't even follow Leo. After about the 6th time I noticed it, it occurred to me how irresponsible it was. And since this thread popped up, I figured I could add some perspective.

If Leo only ever did it once or twice, I wouldn't be talking right now bro. 

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I just can't run off a small, non-random example and leap all the way ------> population claim. It's a good observation, but not enough for the 99% claim.

This is just poor precision and epistemology. I cannot be swayed by this. Really it comes across as you pulling numbers out of thin air? If you have something to support this I will get behind it.

Otherwise cheers for the other clarifications.

I just showed you how to ballpark it yourself. My primary way of understanding reality is through my own thinking, not studies. 

If you're interested in trying, you can ask yourself questions like "what have I observed about suicidal ideation prevalence?" and many more questions like that, then collect all the answers and put them together and see what emerges or converges. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe that doesnt address anything I said or the potential issues with your way of deriving knowing. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

13 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Excuse me? You're telling me I'm lying? I've witnessed it on multiple occasions, and I don't even follow Leo. After about the 6th time I noticed it, it occurred to me how irresponsible it was. And since this thread popped up, I figured I could add some perspective.

If Leo only ever did it once or twice, I wouldn't be talking right now bro. 

Can you link us some quotes to substantiate this? 

[Inliytened1]

I would have to agree with @Joshe here..the 1 percent who maybe have such immense permanent suffering are going to still do it even if we try to talk them out of it.  But the ones who might be on the fence with temporary suffering that will pass - which is the majority - need to hear not to do it and why not to do it..not that people have a right to do it.  This is a very complicated issue and difficult issue but as a spiritual teacher there needs to be this moral responsibility. 

Its for the same reason he took the solipsism video down.

Edited 3 hours ago by Inliytened1

[cetus]

@Joshe Stop playing games with truth. Read Everything Leo said in this post and let it speak for itself.

 

 

[BlessedLion]

I think there is a beauty is allowing people the freedom to do what they want with their bodies and lives. Who is to say that someone cannot be the decider of something like that? 

Some countries that are developed actually have programs where you can "opt out" in a safe and professionally monitored way with dignity and no shame. Imagine how terrifying it must be do already want to committ suicide then having to figure out a way to do it all by yourself knowing your family and friends are going to hate you for doing it. 

 

They do it over a period of months so that it is clear that you are sure about this decision, you do workshops, excercises, talk therapy, but eventually you get to "commit suicide"

I also think of people in horrific medical or mental conditions who just want it to stop and have no hope of getting better. Why is suffering through that better than death?  

[Inliytened1]

Leo decided to take the solipsism video down this should be treated no differently.   

[cetus]

Here we are discussing armchair suicide when there are people buried under 20 slabs of concrete in Venezuela that will most likely never be saved.

[Joshe]

11 minutes ago, cetus said:

@Joshe Stop playing games with truth. Read Everything Leo said in this post and let it speak for itself.

I did. It's not a difficult position to understand. TBH, it's actually more coherent than I initially gave him credit for before this convo even took place, because initially I just thought he had no reason behind saying these things other some philosophical musing, but now I understand that he's saying he does it because it's the compassionate thing to do for the truly stuck minority. I'll take him at his word that that's the reason. 

Does this demonstrate to you that I understand?

I'm not arguing Leo's intent is bad or anything like that. I'm saying, what about the compassion for the families who lose their loved ones because some influencer they respect implied permission? Do those people deserve compassion too. There's more of them than the small suffering minority Leo is catering to. If you care about the truth, you'll stop playing games with it and look at the cost-benefit objectively.

[Joshe]

27 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Can you link us some quotes to substantiate this? 

No. If you want to act like you haven't heard it multiple times on here before, go right ahead.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

17 minutes ago, Joshe said:

If you want to act like you haven't heard it multiple times on here before, go right ahead.

This is just your own assumption and reading into my question. 

My line of enquiry for proof would act to convince anyone in doubt, who has not been so across Leo's history.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Jirh]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

I'm talking about the megaphone and prevalence of suicide-permission messaging. Would you agree that suicide-permission messaging broadcast at volume to a receptive audience pushes the number up? Because this is mostly what I'm talking about.

Permission is not promotion.

No one would even consider suicide unless they're going through unbearable suffering.

And when things gets real, people will do what they have to do, regardless of my opinion or anyone's opinion.

Quote

Of course it would be helpful for suicidal people to discuss it. Keeping that sort of thing bottled up isn't good. If Leo or anyone else wants to have a one-on-one with a suicidal person and let them discuss it, that's great. I've done it several times myself. I've never told anyone confiding in me about suicide not to do it because I have enough wits to know that's useless. I work it out with them. But yes, I agree, one-on-one interpersonal exchanges where you take the taboo out of it is very healthy.

Permission also helps. In many cases, the sense of freedom and agency can be the wall between life and death.

Would you rather know that there is an end to the suffering? Or believe that you're eternally stuck?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

52 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

I think there is a beauty is allowing people the freedom to do what they want with their bodies and lives. Who is to say that someone cannot be the decider of something like that? 

Some countries that are developed actually have programs where you can "opt out" in a safe and professionally monitored way with dignity and no shame. Imagine how terrifying it must be do already want to committ suicide then having to figure out a way to do it all by yourself knowing your family and friends are going to hate you for doing it. 

 

They do it over a period of months so that it is clear that you are sure about this decision, you do workshops, excercises, talk therapy, but eventually you get to "commit suicide"

I also think of people in horrific medical or mental conditions who just want it to stop and have no hope of getting better. Why is suffering through that better than death?  

Yes, and this is why I raised the case of my Aunt who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease.

If anyone knows anything about this disease - it is a terminal death sentence. A slow irreversible decline (think Steven Hawking - suffered from a form of MND and very long lived). My aunt has been given 18 months based on her rate of decline. It is very, very confronting to see how quickly she is fading. Unfortunately, she fell prey to many alternative health treatments (grifters) who sold her on cures with no evidence. Burned through immense amounts of cash for it to amount to nothing.

She is investigating assisted suicide.

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[cetus]

@Natasha Tori Maru Good case in point. Totally her decision whether to continually wake up every morning facing a life full of struggle or not.

[Joseph Maynor]

36 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Yes, and this is why I raised the case of my Aunt who was diagnosed with motor neurone disease.

If anyone knows anything about this disease - it is a terminal death sentence. A slow irreversible decline (think Steven Hawking - suffered from a form of MND and very long lived). My aunt has been given 18 months based on her rate of decline. It is very, very confronting to see how quickly she is fading. Unfortunately, she fell prey to many alternative health treatments (grifters) who sold her on cures with no evidence. Burned through immense amounts of cash for it to amount to nothing.

She is investigating assisted suicide.

You are not the only person who has someone who is dying in your circle.  

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You are not the only person who has someone who is dying in your circle.  

I never laboured under the assumption I was.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Unfortunately, she fell prey to many alternative health treatments (grifters) who sold her on cures with no evidence. Burned through immense amounts of cash for it to amount to nothing.

There are many profesional scammer of that. They say that people are sick due their energy and that. Als is a strange sickness, I did a lot of investigation about that just for the reason that nobody knows what causes it. 

Absolutely nothing is known except that a protein that should be in the cell nucleus is leaking out, and it has a slightly different structure, but this doesn't always happen, and it's unknown whether it's a cause or an effect. It's incredible that with all the resources available and brilliant minds focused on it, there isn't a single clue.

[Joseph Maynor]

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

There are many profesional scammer of that. They say that people are sick due their energy and that. Als is a strange sickness, I did a lot of investigation about that just for the reason that nobody knows what causes it. 

Absolutely nothing is known except that a protein that should be in the cell nucleus is leaking out, and it has a slightly different structure, but this doesn't always happen, and it's unknown whether it's a cause or an effect. It's incredible that with all the resources available and brilliant minds focused on it, there isn't a single clue.

Um Hm.  

[Natasha Tori Maru]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

There are many profesional scammer of that. They say that people are sick due their energy and that. Als is a strange sickness, I did a lot of investigation about that just for the reason that nobody knows what causes it. 

Absolutely nothing is known except that a protein that should be in the cell nucleus is leaking out, and it has a slightly different structure, but this doesn't always happen, and it's unknown whether it's a cause or an effect. It's incredible that with all the resources available and brilliant minds focused on it, there isn't a single clue.

I too did a lot of research. MND is idiopathic in nature, but there is some genetic causes also, I believe?

One pattern we came across was pesticides. My aunt grew up in an area of Australia (farming and agriculture) that has a large quantity of cases of MND in a small locale. Farmland. The hospitals noticed the large volume of cases from the one area and a small information, research and support group was founded. They are currently doing investigation but it is suspected agricultural pesticides may be a contributing factor. 

My aunt swam every day in the rivers in the area.... diagnosed with MND after a lot of confusion and misdiagnosis for 16months. She is 70 years old.