Leo's perspective on suicide?

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Bashar said:

Tfw that's me😅

Would you open up about the specifics?

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

By saying Leo has to self-censor because he's public, you're admitting you already know public speech about this carries serious consequences. You're writing in public right now and it will potentially be read by thousands of people, some of whom will be looking for reasons to justify killing themselves. When one of them finds twenty posts like yours, each one contributes. IDK how this isn't obvious. 

3 hours ago, Joshe said:

 

 

 

Catholic church already castrate enough the individual freedom with their philosophy of absolute terror , nothing happens if some voices of freedom sounds sometimes . Leo maybe should be, let's say ambiguous, but not because the suicidal people, because his interest and possible responsibility. 

Anyway, for me suicide is absolutely impossible unless being so sick without hope that your life is hell. If your health is ok, just fight, anything else is being an absolute coward imo. 

I don't know if there is reincarnation or anything similar but intuitively I feel that this life has consequences. 

Edited yesterday at 12:02 AM by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Which is why I said:

"Life is a gift. Figure out how to make it work."

You deliberately leave that out.

My position is the nuanced one. Not yours. You only think about the majority but not the truly stuck minority.

Telling people not to commit suicide does not stop suicide. This misunderstands how serious suicide is. Suicide is so serious that talking someone down from it is not going to work in a serious case. Your words do nothing to ease their daily suffering.

"Don't do it, brah" is not a serious solution.

I once had a bad trip that was so bad, I literally almost committed suicide. I had asked God to teach me why evil existed in the world and why anyone would want to commit suicide since life is so precious. God responded by answering my query by hallucinating Satan and Satan tormented me by hallucinating situations that showed me that I had no control over my life. Basically I lost control over my mind, and got to find out what Insanity is.

Since your mind is the Universe you can literally hallucinate events like people doing things, technology doing things for example I went out for a drive and I hallucinated my GPS refusing to work and I got completely lost and couldn't get home. Also since I was hallucinating Satan, Satan would hit me with painful sensations in my body and then laugh and mock me that it had control over my life and my life was ruined. So in my anger and defiance I drove to a gun pawn shop (found it by chance) and walked in and asked for the cheapest gun and bullets. The store owner lied and said he was out of ammunition.

When I walked in, it was like they KNEW I wanted to kill myself without them knowing. Anyway I eventually was able to get to the hospital and get some anti-psychotics. I now know why someone would commit suicide. First of all you cannot blame ANYONE for that decision. The only reason a person commits suicide is because they believe they have zero control in this world of survival to create a life for themselves that they can at least tolerate. 

No matter who you are, you are NOT above suicide. All that has happened in your situation is life hasn't gotten bad enough for you that you think it isn't worth living. With that said, I don't regret the experience I had because it taught me ALOT.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

There is evidence to support the claim that open, responsible conversations about suicide are generally more protective in the long run, over silence or non allowance. Blanket bans on these sorts of topics can lead to possibilities of inducing shame, isolation and mistakenly creating beliefs we are not allowed to speak on these topics.

The evidence does NOT show talking about suicide always prevents suicide, or that any discussion is beneficial.

A lot of this topic is tightly woven into questions around sovereignty/agency, personal responsibility and ethics.

Terminal health diagnosis that cement us into a slowly declining quality of life often lead to suicidal thoughts as a possible solution.

I know my relative who was recently diagnosed with MND is seriously considering assisted suicide.

At the end of the day it's always how, by whom, and in what context suicide is talked about.

Edited yesterday at 01:13 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[vibv]

@Razard86 Thanks for sharing! My whole experience is kinda hellish since some psychedelic experiences a while ago, but I try to embrace it.

I know it can and will be overcome. It teaches me so much, not least of which is the ability to generate HOPE out of thin air.

Edited 18 hours ago by vibv

[Someone here]

15 hours ago, Joshe said:

Even if it's not true, the correct position on suicide is "It's always bad and you should never do it under any circumstances."

 

Sorry but what’s the argument for that?

Euthanasia can be morally justified in cases of hopeless unbearable suffering. It’s easy to underestimate the kinds of suffering that exist in this world until you witness them firsthand.

If someone as intelligent and self-aware as Leo contemplated suicide because of some  stomach or digestive problems imagine what people with far more devastating conditions might endure. Think of elderly people who are completely disabled and have lost all independence or those who are incontinent and require constant care. Think of someone who has lost both arms or legs in a war or someone who survived a fire but suffered catastrophic burns over most of their body.ther are also children born with extremely rare and severe genetic disorders like two  heads  stuck in one body 

Go spend some time in a hospital’s emergency room or intensive care unit. You’ll see that unimaginable suffering is a reality for many people. euthanasia can be morally valid in certain extreme cases where there is no realistic hope of recovery and the suffering is unbearable.

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Someone here

[Joshe]

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

Sorry but what’s the argument for that?

Euthanasia can be morally justified in cases of hopeless unbearable suffering. It’s easy to underestimate the kinds of suffering that exist in this world until you witness them firsthand.

If someone as intelligent and self-aware as Leo contemplated suicide because of some  stomach or digestive problems imagine what people with far more devastating conditions might endure. Think of elderly people who are completely disabled and have lost all independence or those who are incontinent and require constant care. Think of someone who has lost both arms or legs in a war or someone who survived a fire but suffered catastrophic burns over most of their body.ther are also children born with extremely rare and severe genetic disorders like two  heads  stuck in one body 

Go spend some time in a hospital’s emergency room or intensive care unit. You’ll see that unimaginable suffering is a reality for many people. euthanasia can be morally valid in certain extreme cases where there is no realistic hope of recovery and the suffering is unbearable.

 

I agree with you. My point is about communication.

99% of the time, people contemplating suicide are not the people you described - they're just people going through a rough patch and looking for reasons to go through with it or not.

Imagine someone pops up a thread saying they want to off themselves and then a bunch of people are like "don't do it bruh, suicide is never the answer" and then some epistemic genius chimes in "well, actually, if the person is suffering enough, it can be the right answer." How is that not reckless and weird? 

Also, imagine a respected leader said "suicide is sometimes the right answer" 225 times to a community that regularly deals with suicidal thoughts. How is this not reckless and weird? 

The alternative is to just never say it - keep it to yourself to avoid inadvertently contributing to immense suffering. 

[cetus]

26 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Also, imagine a respected leader said "suicide is sometimes the right answer" 225 times to a community that regularly deals with suicidal thoughts. How is this not reckless and weird? 

This statement is reckless and nowhere near what Leo is conveying. Stop confusing compassion and understanding for ignorance.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

99% of the time, people contemplating suicide are not the people you described - they're just people going through a rough patch and looking for reasons to go through with it or not.

There's no evidence supporting this claim. Maybe it was simply rhetorical.

I would argue that most people who consider/think about suicide are not simply looking for "reasons to go through with it." Suicidal thinking exists on a spectrum. Some people have a persistent desire to die. But then also many experience intense ambivalence; they want the pain to end and want to live if things could improve.

[Joshe]

17 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There's no evidence supporting this claim. Maybe it was simply rhetorical.

I would argue that most people who consider/think about suicide are not simply looking for "reasons to go through with it." Suicidal thinking exists on a spectrum. Some people have a persistent desire to die. But then also many experience intense ambivalence; they want the pain to end and want to live if things could improve.

Imagine 100 people contemplating suicide. Roughly how many are in the exceptional-cases category? Possibly not even 1. You might have to go up to 1000 before you even get one. 

I myself have seen more than 100 cases of people contemplating suicide and not a single one of them fit the exceptional-cases category.

So yes, it wasn't meant to be precise number, but it wasn't pulled out of thin air either. I'd say the 99% is a reasonable ballpark. 95 seems too low. 

Given the size difference, it doesn't make sense to publicly cater to the exceptional-cases category because you'd do more harm than good, which people seem to be having a difficult time grasping.

---

There's too much variation/uniqueness for me to conceptualize suicidal ideation on a spectrum. But nonetheless, the examples you highlighted wouldn't fit in the exceptional-cases category.

[Joshe]

2 hours ago, cetus said:

This statement is reckless and nowhere near what Leo is conveying.

It was an adjacent hypothetical. 

2 hours ago, cetus said:

Stop confusing compassion and understanding for ignorance.

I've not confused it. I'm seeing clearly what you think is compassion and understanding. Actual compassion weighs harm and adjusts. 

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I would argue that most people who consider/think about suicide are not simply looking for "reasons to go through with it."

By this, I meant that they're receptive to reasons for or against. If they're weighing suicide daily, or once a week, or once a month, when they come across Leo or any other influencer who gives them reasons for or against, they're "receptive" to suicidal messaging. The looking can be active or passive.

[cetus]

20 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Actual compassion weighs harm and adjusts. 

Not sure what you mean by "adjusts". Please expand on that so I understand where you're coming from.

Edited 44 minutes ago by cetus

[Jirh]

@Joshe

Suicide is not a philosophical inquiry. It's a torturing experience.

You cannot reason someone out of suicide. It never works.

But you can understand and contain them and allow their expression of suffering a space to exist, so they can feel safe again, which might lower the chances that they would actually go through with it.

It's paradoxical like that.

[cetus]

1 minute ago, Jirh said:

You cannot reason someone out of suicide. It never works.

But you can understand and contain them and allow their expression of suffering a space to exist, so they can feel safe again, which might lower the chances that they would actually go through with it.

I totally agree.

[Joshe]

18 minutes ago, cetus said:

Not sure what you mean by "adjusts". Please expand on that so I understand where you're coming from.

I mean that if you understand my argument, which demonstrates why it's a terrible idea for an influential person to make a habit out of saying things like "Humans have the right to commit suicide.", then you'd see you're contributing to the harm of far more than you're helping. Someone actually concerned with compassion would take this seriously and would need to either say how my argument (which to me seems like common sense) is flawed, or would need to call for an adjustment - realize the error. 

Edited 28 minutes ago by Joshe

[Jirh]

@cetus 👍🏻

I meant contain as in emotionally. More of an allowance than restriction.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I just can't run off a small, non-random example and leap all the way ------> population claim. It's a good observation, but not enough for the 99% claim.

39 minutes ago, Joshe said:

So yes, it wasn't meant to be precise number, but it wasn't pulled out of thin air either. I'd say the 99% is a reasonable ballpark. 95 seems too low. 

This is just poor precision and epistemology. I cannot be swayed by this. Really it comes across as you pulling numbers out of thin air? If you have something to support this I will get behind it.

Otherwise cheers for the other clarifications.