Drama Alert! Another YTber is calling us a cult! 😈☦️

[Osaid]

Quote

 

Don't you dare play your games with me. None of it will work on me. I see through every single one of you. Wise up fast or you will lose my guidance forever. I am done wasting time with you.

Nothing personal. I just will not play your silly human games. I did not reach my level of consciousness by entertaining such crap. And that is the standard I set here. It's time to stop slacking off. I have been far too nice to you people.

 

Ok this is pretty bad. Back in 2023, but I'm pretty sure he said the same thing to Carl recently. The whole "I'm not gonna share anything with you anymore if you question me" threat.

[Thought Art]

@Carl-Richard Okay, so not Actualized teachings right?  Leo has a crass, asshole like personality. He is highly disagreeable. Anyone who has been around him long enough knows this. This idea a spiritual teacher needs to make you feel good all the time I think is false. Vernon Howard taught me that. 
 

 

[zurew]

16 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Dude, what are we expecting from a guy who was gonna become an alien on camera...

 

The video evidence was uploaded here 2 millennia ago, actualized.org members were just too unconcious to see it and to recognize it. 

Edited 2 hours ago by zurew

[Thought Art]

8 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Ok this is pretty bad. Back in 2023, but I'm pretty sure he said the same thing to Carl recently. The whole "I'm not gonna share anything with you anymore if you question me" threat.

Do you guys ever put yourself in his shoes dealing with everyone on this forum? What he said isn’t bad. You are looking for things to demonize him 😄.

But yeah, who knows. I’m enjoying all this. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

17 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Dude, what are we expecting from a guy who was gonna become an alien on camera...

 

Haha, yeah he was struggling to integrate that trip. Embarrassing, but I think he has since admitted this wrong. 

[zurew]

11 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Haha, yeah he was struggling to integrate that trip. Embarrassing, but I think he has since admitted this wrong. 

I dont think so

 

Edited 2 hours ago by zurew

[Osaid]

8 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

What he said isn’t bad. 

It's bad in the sense that it's very cult-like.

8 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

You are looking for things to demonize him 😄.

Not really, I don't care about demons or making other people look like demons. I could list my empathies that I have with Leo, but that doesn't change the cult dynamics that he consistently displays, and therefore it wouldn't be relevant to the topic. 

[Osaid]

12 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Embarrassing, but I think he has since admitted this wrong.

Did he? I don't recall any updates on that. I was under the impression he was still browsing Amazon for a camera that has the capability.

[Thought Art]

20 minutes ago, zurew said:

I dont think so

 

That quote isn’t directly related to that particular claim though. 
 

@Osaid haha, I recall him saying he was wrong.
 

Is it cult like? Is it bad that he says certain things? I mean, I can see how people interpret that. But, that’s a perspective. I don’t think it’s totally true. That the only reason he says it is to control you. But, I’m gonna wade in this water. To me, someone could be enlightened or awakened and then what is obvious to them isn’t obvious to someone else as a possibility. How do you know for sure? It could be bad, it could be that he is teaching something. You don’t know… but, you are defending yourself. Which may be wise. 
 

No teacher swings a batting average of 100%. How do we separate the noise from the signal? The useful insights from the Leo ego?

Edited 1 hour ago by Thought Art

[zurew]

33 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

That quote isn’t directly related to that particular claim though. 

What do you mean?  @UnbornTao was specifically asking for video evidence there and Leo responded to him.

Do you think Leo makes a difference between turning into an alien and between turning into an alien in front of the camera in his reply there ?

Look: 

But regardless, I havent seem him admitting anywhere that he was wrong about it and at best you can only say in light of the linked thread, that Leo  didnt respond to the video stuff that @UnbornTao was asking about there (under the most charitable interpretation of Leo's reply you can possible go with there - if you want to maintain your position  that Leo didnt  make any additional claims beyond his initial claim about him having an ability to turn into an alien in front of the camera)

Edited 1 hour ago by zurew

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I've had contractors standing in front of my face, spittle from the mouth, calling me a little cu**. 

I've been called a dumb bitch by dudes. To my face. Had guys on site walk up to me and get right on my personal space with antagonistic, aggressive body language.

Somehow I didn't attack back or respond. They had reasons to be angry. 

Just because you can explain someone's bad behaviour, does not make it okay. 

You choose to let your temper fly.

[zurew]

@Thought Art 

If a friend showed you the same kind of evidence about another spiritual leader whose responses and behavior were essentially identical to Leo's, do you think you would view that leader's statements in a similar way, or do you think that you might interpret them differently?

[Osaid]

34 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

That the only reason he says it is to control you.

The reason doesn't really matter. What matters is what he actually ends up doing or conveying. Structure over content. He might say it's "to awaken you", or maybe he does want to control you, but it does not matter. At the end of the day, what he said doesn't change.

The truth is that Leo has a narcissistic view on spirituality which forces him to impose his viewpoints and threaten you in strange ways. The idea that someone can be as conscious as him or more conscious than him is threatening to his whole model he has created around consciousness.

34 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

To me, someone could be enlightened or awakened and then what is obvious to them isn’t obvious to someone else as a possibility. How do you know for sure? It could be bad, it could be that he is teaching something. You don’t know… but, you are defending yourself. Which may be wise. 
 

No teacher swings a batting average of 100%. How do we separate the noise from the signal? The useful insights from the Leo ego?

That's a great question. 

First of all, it is entirely possible to attempt to communicate what someone doesn't understand without engaging in cult dynamics. This is what enlightened teachers have been doing across history, and it's how the term "enlightenment" started to propagate. Look at Ramana Maharshi, Jiddu Krishnamurti, etc.

You can consider that a teacher might know something you don't, but if you were versed on cult dynamics/narcissism, or if you were simply honest and authentic to your own experience, you would immediately sense when someone is trying to manipulate you or put you in some kind of strange hierarchy about your own consciousness and your own experience. Kind of like sensing a "red flag". That would immediately put you off from the teacher, cause you would know there is no reasonable excuse for doing that, even if they had some kind of secret knowledge. By the way, if you didn't know, the promise of "secret knowledge" is a very very common cult dynamic.

IMO, if you want to "protect" yourself:

1. Study narcissism and cult psychology

2. Expose yourself to the views of a variety of different teachers, and then compare and contrast.

3. Don't settle for beliefs beyond your own experience

Edited 1 hour ago by Osaid

[Thought Art]

@zurew That is fair, I recall him admitting he was wrong about the camera. But, not the Alien state of consciousness. Umm, I don’t know. If I knew nothing about someone and was shown only a small amount of context especially the negative I’d probably view it negatively. For example, I view teal swan negatively but I know little about her. 
 

@Natasha Tori Maru That’s fair, and good job in those circumstances. I’ve been on the forum for years and rarely share that. I wouldn’t make it 10,000 plus posts if I was the kind of person to fly off the handle. It’s very rare, and I felt I could put that energy into my long and nuanced post. You aren’t better than me for not showing anger in those circumstances. Anger isn’t bad. 
 

Have you ever told someone to fuck off? Sometimes this is a good way to  about something. It’s rare, and I would never do it without broader acknowledgement of a generalized respect. I’m also a man, and not a woman. And, at work I wouldn’t speak like how I may speak to people generally on this forum. Survival of course and context is relevant to how I choose to express myself. 
 

In my field telling someone to fuck off, can make you closer to them. I work with men and my work is dangerous and we depend on each other. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Thought Art

[Joseph Maynor]

17 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I've had contractors standing in front of my face, spittle from the mouth, calling me a little cu**. 

I've been called a dumb bitch by dudes. To my face. Had guys on site walk up to me and get right on my personal space with antagonistic, aggressive body language.

Somehow I didn't attack back or respond. They had reasons to be angry. 

Just because you can explain someone's bad behaviour, does not make it okay. 

You choose to let your temper fly.

I'm sensing you haven't been able to express your anger in a normal way or so you state.  

[Thought Art]

16 minutes ago, Osaid said:

The reason doesn't really matter. What matters is what he actually ends up doing or conveying. Structure over content. He might say it's "to awaken you", or maybe he does want to control you, but it does not matter. At the end of the day, what he said doesn't change.

The truth is that Leo has a narcissistic view on spirituality which forces him to impose his viewpoints and threaten you in strange ways. The idea that someone can be as conscious as him or more conscious than him is threatening to his whole model he has created around consciousness.

1. Actually this does not threaten his whole model at all. His model is that there are varying degrees and types of consciousness. For example, a fly vs a dog and a dog vs a human. Humans operating at different levels of consciousness is a fact that happens. This doesn’t prove Leo is more conscious, or less conscious. But, doesn’t disprove his model. I don’t think his model puts him at the top indefinitely. But, merging with God, if possible in theory should put that consciousness given the reality of what consciousness is… at the “top” as it is infinity. ♾️ 

Quote

That's a great question. 

First of all, it is entirely possible to attempt to communicate what someone doesn't understand without engaging in cult dynamics. This is what enlightened teachers have been doing across history, and it's how the term "enlightenment" started to propagate. Look at Ramana Maharshi, Jiddu Krishnamurti, etc.

2. This is a fair point, people like Ramana Maharshi, ab Arabi as well don’t have documented proof of this behaviour. They also are different teachers with different temperaments. In different settings. I’m sure Ramana Maharshi didn’t run a forum with people who regularly insult him as Leo does. Though, Leo sort of maybe creates his own issues with how he himself acts. Leo isn’t that mature in his dealing with others. He is arrogant and often an asshole. 

You can consider that a teacher might know something you don't, but if you were versed on cult dynamics/narcissism, or if you were simply honest and authentic to your own experience, you would immediately sense when someone is trying to manipulate you or put you in some kind of strange hierarchy about your own consciousness and your own experience. Kind of like sensing a "red flag". That would immediately put you off from the teacher, cause you would know there is no reasonable excuse for doing that, even if they had some kind of secret knowledge. By the way, if you didn't know, the promise of "secret knowledge" is a very very common cult dynamic.

3. Maybe, but I go to Leo to learn things and if he didn’t know more than me at least for the time being seeing as he has specialized in this area… and his work outside his intersections on the forum, and his body of work as a whole is profound. 

IMO, if you want to "protect" yourself:

1. Study narcissism and cult psychology

2. Expose yourself to the views of a variety of different teachers, and then compare and contrast.

4. I have repeatedly said I do this. Leo is one of many sources I draw from. I’ve said this again  and again. I still like Leo. 

3. Don't settle for beliefs beyond your own experience.

5. I have also addressed this point many times in this thread….

Look, Leo is just a guy. He has put thousands of hours into this. I haven’t seen anyone in modern western society doing this. He isn’t perfect. I still enjoy learning from him, questioning things, and interacting with you guys from time to time. 
 

I am building my own understanding. 

Having read, listened to and devoured many sources over the years has actually made me respect Leo’s body of work more… not less. Not 100% of it, and not him on a personal level. But, his body of work is really interesting and valuable.  
 

This is me today, and I give myself permission completely to be wrong and correct as I love forward in time. 
 

Something I struggle with is that I find every human source questionable including Leo. Reality is too complex. Ever human is fallible and cannot be trusted with truth. 

Edited 1 hour ago by Thought Art

[zurew]

30 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

If I knew nothing about someone and was shown only a small amount of context especially the negative I’d probably view it negatively.

Let me rephrase my original question then - lets say  your friend was in posession of all the background facts that you have about Leo right now. 

Do you think that, given this additional info that your friend's assessment of Leo's  previously presented replies and behavior  would be significantly and more positively recontextualized?

Edited 50 minutes ago by zurew

[Thought Art]

If someone did awaken to realize they were God, in a complete state of omnipresent consciousness… they would be the most conscious thing in the universe. If anyone did this, that would be true. This is only true if it’s possible, if that’s the true nature of reality, consciousness and if you are truly God. Only by actually becoming God, can someone truly know God due to its ontological nature. 
 

If God is true, and the big bang is not then the true science would have to include God, Awakening and Infinity. True understanding would have to close the gap between consciousness and the origin of consciousness. Reality that created itself would have to remerge into to completely understand and awaken to itself that its what it is and always has been. 
 

Then, if someone had done more philosophical work at a deeper, more broad level awakened and then returned to human consciousness they would be able to articulate this Oneness, this omnipresent truth of the fundamental nature of reality to others who are still in the dream. 
 

But, they could only communicate with with their finite psychology, limited human understanding, biases,  imperfections, survival considerations, social contexts, etc. 
 

Other humans with no deep philosophical, meditative, and awakening experience would find that individual extremely threatening.  They would accuse him of all sorts of things. 
 

If this is possible. But belief or disbelief isn’t good enough. 
 

If this is true, that it’s possible and can be done by most humans… but, we have never considered this widely as a species it’s surely going to be controversial because it would suggest that reality is by design not to expose us to our true nature as God. Though, over time it was built in to awaken of one chose to do this. If it’s true. I can see that being the case. There is clearly an intelligent design to human life with lots of relative spiritual teachings, beliefs, states, religions, etc. All this is good. Finite relative reality is good. 
 

Being God all the time, being totally aware of this isn’t all it’s cut out to be forever. It’s good to sleep because I, we, have forever…. Forever. So, enjoy the dream of being human, of debating, of trying to make sense of everything and the drama. It’s all here for us to experience. 
 

But, if it’s not possible then it’s false. And, someone could think they experienced this but didn’t and it could still ultimately be true. But, how do we know what is true about the fundamental nature of reality, mind, consciousness, the origin of existence, the meaning of life, etc? Can we take any other humans word for this? Even Leo’s? No. 
 

If we don’t want to pick up beliefs than we simply can’t know.
 

So what is true that requires not believing? How does state of consciousness, which is prior to belief play into that?

Expecting a guy on YouTube to be a saint, to never make a mistake, to make you feel good, when he admits to being an asshole makes no sense. 
 

I am a fan of the videos. I’m not convinced of it all being accurate. But, it’s pretty good. It helps me avoid a lot of illusion, make sense of how to approach the big picture. But, it’s a human doing it. Sooo…. I don’t expect perfection. 
 

These videos and these interactions with one man, can’t be how you go about spirituality in its entirety. Reality is brutish, it’s twisted its kind and loving but also war and bombs and sickness. You have to contend with this brutal, twisted reality we all share. All humans are in this game of survival and all by definition of being finite will have limitations, corruptions, ego, times when they aren’t kind to you, times when they don’t tickle you. 
 

Yes, many spiritual teachers are more sweet, kind, and considerate in how they speak. Leo is not like that. He has never been like that. Yet, you choose on your own free will to interact with him. Why?
 

I am okay with people being offended by Leo. I don’t really care about that. His actions aren’t malicious in my view. 
 

People may never agree with me, and I’m fine with that. But, if you think I’m not a warrior you are wrong. I’m kind, I’m considerate. But, I am not nice. 
 

This is a moment in time. Humans are not fully evolved. We still have religions and belief systems held together by survival, symbolic understanding and feelings emotions and comfort. None of that is true. We have a science full of corruption, religions developed by ancient tribes who still hold human kind. 
 

Is human evolution some sweet and pretty little thing? Is that how you expect it to go? No. It’s going to be ugly and confusing and challenging. Painful. Scary. Brutish often. Even in this work, people have to have backbones against those with gross double standards. 

Edited 31 minutes ago by Thought Art

[Osaid]

41 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Actually this does not threaten his whole model at all. 

It actually really does. I think this has been exemplified many times before.

For example, if you haven't taken any psychedelics, you will be hit with the "I'm more conscious than you, therefore what you say doesn't matter".

Quote

This doesn’t prove Leo is more conscious, or less conscious.

Leo certainly believes that he has proof. Emphasis on belief. Because it is a belief.

The notion of consciousness becoming conscious of a lower consciousness is completely contradictory and laughable. An entire stance built on duality, while pretending to be non-dual.

But what would happen if someone believed?

Control. Isolation. Spiritual hierarchies. Cult dynamics. Narcissism.

Edited 33 minutes ago by Osaid

[Thought Art]

9 minutes ago, Osaid said:

It actually really does. I think this has been exemplified many times before.

For example, if you haven't taken any psychedelics, you will be hit with the "I'm more conscious than you, therefore what you say doesn't matter".

1. Okay but how does that disprove the model? Sounds like it is consistent. Sounds like the model that different states of consciousness exist is consistent with those statements. 

Leo certainly believes that he has proof. Emphasis on belief. Because it is a belief.

The notion of consciousness becoming conscious of a lower consciousness is completely contradictory and laughable. An entire stance built on duality, while pretending to be non-dual.

2. This shows you lack understanding of non-duality. Even schools like Non-Dual Shiva tantra explain how multiplicity originates in non-duality. You have to assume you have a solid grasp of non duality when you say those things. This ancient spiritual understanding clearly shows in their model how this non-dual reality condenses into the world. Even in the Yellow empowered guide to Chinese medicine and the tao discuss this. 
 

Look around the room! If your understanding of non-duality was true you would be able to look around, or experience any different thing but you do…

But what would happen if someone believed?

Control. Isolation. Spiritual hierarchies. Cult dynamics. Narcissism.

3. Yeah but those things aren’t happening. You can walk away whenever you want. No one cares if you are here or not. No one is isolating anyone. Leo doesn’t teach isolation and has given so many warnings to people…. So, you’ll never be satisfied. 

No one is forced to watch the videos or interact on this web form. The internet is a huge place with lots of spiritual teachers…. You can choose things you know. You’re a free person. 
 

How does non-duality relate to God? Or Shiva, as is another name. If you think Non-duality is different than present movement experience with time passing by, other people to talk to, pain, different religions, etc… you don’t get it. 

Edited 22 minutes ago by Thought Art