Pick up and respecting the sovereignty of women

[Zen LaCroix]

Leo made a blog post about pick up guys not respecting the sovereignty of women. I wanted to ask Leo as well as the forum members what it means to respect the sovereignty of women when doing pick up.

To me it means not harassing them physically or sexually. Respecting their rejection and walking away. Not touching them in an unwanted way. No use of violence, the threat of violence, coercion, intimidation or blackmail or any other method to get the girl to do something that she may not want to do.

Another forum member made a post about doing pick up in a conscious way and this is what I'm getting at here. Because according to Leo all socializing is corrupt because we are survival machines but the reality is that most of us here want women and friends and a family and socializing is or will be a big part of our lives.

So lets talk about it. What do you think it means to respect a woman's sovereignty?

Edited 11 hours ago by Zen LaCroix

[Valach]

I feel like it also is having her agenda in your mind. A lot of danger of pickup is that you learn how to overstimulate woman emotionally so they surrender to your agenda. Even if you full well know that they want different thing from you.

[Zen LaCroix]

52 minutes ago, Valach said:

I feel like it also is having her agenda in your mind. A lot of danger of pickup is that you learn how to overstimulate woman emotionally so they surrender to your agenda. Even if you full well know that they want different thing from you.

I hear this but I feel differently. Pick up is about getting a woman attracted and wanting to sleep with you. You learn how to handle their state, increase her state, her compliance and buying temperature to want to go off with you. 

There is also the reality that the woman often isn't looking for a guy and may not even have an agenda towards that. She has so much abundance and already has so many guys that want her and guys who continually persuing her that she just expects to go with the flow of some guy she likes. 

This is influence and persuasion but would you really call pumping a woman's state to make her want to go off with you not respecting her sovereignty as a human being?

[Valach]

24 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

I hear this but I feel differently. Pick up is about getting a woman attracted and wanting to sleep with you. You learn how to handle their state, increase her state, her compliance and buying temperature to want to go off with you. 

There is also the reality that the woman often isn't looking for a guy and may not even have an agenda towards that. She has so much abundance and already has so many guys that want her and guys who continually persuing her that she just expects to go with the flow of some guy she likes. 

This is influence and persuasion but would you really call pumping a woman's state to make her want to go off with you not respecting her sovereignty as a human being?

If she is looking for a relationship, or she seems to be a sensitive person and you are just looking for sex or validation, then yes, I take it as part of my responsibility to take this into consideration. I've burned woman in the past and I have been burned myself. I don't want to participate in this anymore. There is enough suffering in the world as is. 

[LastThursday]

Pick up is not so different from advertising. In pick up you're advertising yourself in bite-sized chunks to whoever is willing to listen to your spiel. Most advertising is unsolicited, because it has to be, even if it's targeted. Is this conscious? Yes and no. No, because it's indiscriminate, maybe even harrassment at some level. Yes, because there are some who want your product. Because of that ambiguity most advertising has strict standards on what is acceptable. Who sets the standards for pick up? You do. But in essence you want to say "hi this is what you're getting, do you like it?", and you have to be attuned enough to understand what "no" means and walk away if not.

 

[CARDOZZO]

Radical Honesty, Humor & Vulnerability. 

This is how you respect women. You don't lie, cheat or manipulate to get sex.

[Zen LaCroix]

2 hours ago, CARDOZZO said:

Radical Honesty, Humor & Vulnerability. 

This is how you respect women. You don't lie, cheat or manipulate to get sex.

Let's be more specific. What exactly do you mean by cheating and manipulating to get sex? Give an example

[Oppositionless]

27 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

Let's be more specific. What exactly do you mean by cheating and manipulating to get sex? Give an example

The biggest one is saying you value a woman for her personality , or you have an emotional connection, when really you just want to fuck.

The other big one is when she asks you if you're seeing other people and you lie and say no.

Edited 4 hours ago by Oppositionless

[CARDOZZO]

39 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

Let's be more specific. What exactly do you mean by cheating and manipulating to get sex? Give an example

You tell her that you are X but you are Y. 

You tell her you are a entrepreneur but you are a jobless liar.

You tell her you want relationships and kids but you just need sex.

You tell her you are spiritual but you are a massive asshole to other people.

What you really are, intentions and agenda are hidden to exploit her in whatever way, shape or form. 

[Ulax]

Just don't abuse her, or lie to her, aside from white lies.

[Zen LaCroix]

36 minutes ago, Oppositionless said:

The biggest one is saying you value a woman for her personality , or you have an emotional connection, when really you just want to fuck.

The other big one is when she asks you if you're seeing other people and you lie and say no.

Interesting. I still I don't see how this is taking away her sovereignty but I can see of course lying to get you want can be considered unethical.

When it comes to saying you value a woman for her personality even if you don't. Truthfully almost all men who are not psychopaths and narcissistics are gonna care about a woman's  personality on some level.

Anyway how would reckon that with the idea of playing the game and that noone is above the game.

So even if you just want to fuck it would be generally be bad social skills to just say that explicitly. Of course there is a way to make it sexy but the mystery is preferred. You're also not obligated to know if you want a relationship or just sex with the girl before you have sex. And many women want casual sex too. They want to chase and  by being upfront about sex you're forcing yourself to make a decision and you don't even know  if you want this girl or not. It also can rob her of the ability to chase and qualify herself to you.

[Zen LaCroix]

32 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

What you really are, intentions and agenda are hidden to exploit her in whatever way, shape or form. 

Be more specific please. I don't know what you mean by what you really are, intentions and agenda are hidden to exploit her

I think you are saying you need to know upfront what you want and tell her. Which is kinda too logical in my opinion. Where's the mystery? But expand on this so I fully understand give an example.

Also remember the core idea of my questioning is about ensuring we respect women's sovereignty. 

[CARDOZZO]

41 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

I don't know what you mean by what you really are, intentions and agenda are hidden to exploit her

Imagine you just want to fuck. You just want sex.

You put on a mask saying that you are a good guy who just needs a girl to settle down. You lie about your past, career, life. Do you see what are you doing? 

42 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

I think you are saying you need to know upfront what you want and tell her. Which is kinda too logical in my opinion

You don't know evil manipulative humans. Dude, believe me, there are guys out there lying like a mofo to get woman in the bed.

43 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:

Also remember the core idea of my questioning is about ensuring we respect women's sovereignty. 

Radical Honesty: The ability to express your needs and agendas in a direct truthful manner without distortions or lies.

Do you want sex? Tell her. Do you want a one night stand? Tell her. 

 

[CARDOZZO]

Agenda = Your true intentions, needs, what you REALLY want to do, thoughts, emotions, ideas.

[CARDOZZO]

Intention = A mental commitment to carry out an action or achieve a specific outcome in the future. It is the "why" and the "what" behind your behavior.

[TheGod]

10 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

Radical Honesty: The ability to express your needs and agendas in a direct truthful manner without distortions or lies.

Do you want sex? Tell her. Do you want a one night stand? Tell her. 

Women hate radical honesty, unless she's very conscious (which is rare). 

If you approach a girl and tell her directly that you approached her because she is sexy you can easily see what is going to happen. 

 

[CARDOZZO]

32 minutes ago, TheGod said:

If you approach a girl and tell her directly that you approached her because she is sexy you can easily see what is going to happen. 

No, I don't easily see.

Actually, you would be surprised. Test for yourself.

[TheGod]

2 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

No, I don't easily see.

Actually, you would be surprised. Test for yourself.

Broski, I live in Canada and being direct here is more than people can handle. I tested it for myself. Where do you live?

When I was in Brazil it was a different story, so I guess it depends a lot on the society you live in and what's considered normal.

 

[CARDOZZO]

33 minutes ago, TheGod said:

I tested it for myself

You are not in jail. Keep doing it. 

Tell her how cute she is, girly, sexy. Ask for her number. Women are craving real connections.

34 minutes ago, TheGod said:

When I was in Brazil it was a different story, so I guess it depends a lot on the society you live in and what's considered normal.

Brazil is not what you think it is  

[TheGod]

3 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

Tell her how cute she is, girly, sexy. Ask for her number. Women are craving real connections.

hahahha sure, come in Canada and tell her this in the middle of the day in a shopping mall

Try it and see it for yourself