A gentle reminder

[waheed]

On 3/29/2026 at 3:04 PM, Leo Gura said:

You guys understand understanding as much as this ape understands driving.

 

That was brutal 😂

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

It's not necessarily about another person, or about seeking social validation, although sometimes that can be incredibly useful, and oftentimes it is required, even demanded. This discussion deals mostly within the context of abilities or fields where knowledge can be easily verified, just for the sake of the conversation. As a more abstract field, think of math, for example.

If I can't drive, no amount of claiming that I directly experience and understand the activity is going to change the fact that I'm essentially lying to myself. When it comes to existential matters, boy, we can all be exceptionally good liars (mainly to ourselves) because, unless you somehow create it for yourself, there is not the same kind of feedback that tells us that we're lying to ourselves, overlooking and assuming stuff, etc.

What criteria or factor 'decides' whether one is able to perform or not, and how well? One thing is clear: you are not that deciding factor. In the case of physical activities, this point shouldn't be hard to see. That's why they're used as examples to bring up a deeper principle.

I see.  So for you truth is what can be demonstrated to others (or to a reasonable person) for verification.

[UnbornTao]

31 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I see.  So for you truth is what can be demonstrated to others (or to a reasonable person) for verification.

No! I'm talking about experiential understanding, not truth. And I used "not-you" as a tool to step out of one's mind to make a more fair, unbiased assessment relative to one's real understanding of some activity. It doesn't have to be a person or a group. That you're able to do it - and to the degree that you do - is the proof. Not to be confused necessarily with social validation. But if you're going to become a surgeon, say, of course that social element is an essential component in this regard.

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

No! I'm talking about experiential understanding, not truth. And I used "not-you" as a tool to step out of one's mind to make a more fair, unbiased assessment relative to one's real understanding of some activity. It doesn't have to be a person or a group. That you're able to do it - and to the degree that you do - is the proof. Not to be confused necessarily with social validation. But if you're going to become a surgeon, say, of course that social element is an essential component in this regard.

Understood.  But what is the activity that we're competing in?

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Understood.  But what is the activity that we're competing in?

I don't understand your question. Are you asking why we're having this exchange? Mostly for entertainment and interacting with others, I'd say, but hopefully it also opens some doors for people.

If you mean it more generally, any activity or ability, really. We're essentially asking what skill is.

[integral]

Leos loves beating people with an Epistemic bat to the head. lol

Edited Monday at 10:23 PM by integral

[cetus]

True understanding is a bit more nuanced than what the mind can handle.

[Lila9]

On 3/29/2026 at 2:04 PM, Leo Gura said:

You guys understand understanding as much as this ape understands driving.

 

What if from an NHI perspective you understand Love as much as this orangutan understands what he is doing 😊

 

[Joseph Maynor]

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I don't understand your question. Are you asking why we're having this exchange? Mostly for entertainment and interacting with others, I'd say, but hopefully it also opens some doors for people.

If you mean it more generally, any activity or ability, really. We're essentially asking what skill is.

No, I'm enjoying the exchange.  So you're linking understanding to skill in doing something.  

[cetus]

A plumber can connect a bunch of sewage pipe together and not know shit.

Edited Tuesday at 03:19 AM by cetus

[tsuki]

3 hours ago, cetus said:

A plumber can connect a bunch of sewage pipe together and not know shit.

I’m guessing that plumbers know shit pretty well 

[cetus]

6 hours ago, tsuki said:

I’m guessing that plumbers know shit pretty well 

Connecting sewage pipe together doesn't qualify someone as being a professional scatologist.

[Xonas Pitfall]

16 hours ago, cetus said:

True understanding is a bit more nuanced than what the mind can handle.

That's too cool! 🥝

[Jirh]

10 hours ago, tsuki said:

I’m guessing that plumbers know shit pretty well 

True.

But I bet they don't understand it.

[Jirh]

On 30/03/2026 at 8:13 PM, UnbornTao said:

It's also true that they're able to do it, and don't really need to 'understand' it conceptually. 

The idea of this thread is that the doing itself is a manifestation of understanding and that it's enough proof of it. Whatever you can do, is something you actually understand, on some level. The ability to do something is a testimony of your understanding.

Some people seem to disagree with this, but it's clear to me that it's true. It doesn't make logical sense, but it makes intuitive sense. It doesn't apply to everything in the universe equally, but it certainly does apply to some things.

You can understand driving a car without learning how a car engine works. You don't need that knowledge to understand the act of driving. Once you're able to drive, you've understood driving, in whatever narrow sense that may be.

The counter argument to this claim is that there's not much conscious conceptualization going on in learning how to drive a car. It's mostly subconscious. So it doesn't qualify as conceptual understanding. But that would be comparing apples with oranges. Because conceptual understanding is a field, and intuitive understanding is another. Both has advantages and limits, but they are not opposites. They complement each other. And that's what most people who disagree are probably missing.

The more you learn about something, the more you understand it. And the more you practice it, the more you understand it too. I think it's nearly impossible to disagree with this.

Edited Tuesday at 05:38 PM by Jirh

[UnbornTao]

On 3/31/2026 at 3:57 AM, Joseph Maynor said:

No, I'm enjoying the exchange.  So you're linking understanding to skill in doing something.  

Pretty much. When it comes to an ability, whether you can do it - and how well - is the measure of genuine understanding.

The opposite is believing you understand it, and/or understanding it conceptually. But the real proof lies in the doing.

[UnbornTao]

On 3/31/2026 at 8:12 AM, tsuki said:

I’m guessing that plumbers know shit pretty well 

Yeah.

On 3/31/2026 at 2:29 PM, cetus said:

Connecting sewage pipe together doesn't qualify someone as being a professional scatologist.

And being a scatologist doesn't necessarily qualify someone as a professional plumber.

We're talking about different domains.

It’s like soccer players, on the one hand, and soccer analysts on the other. When it comes to actually playing the sport, the players know best. And even good analysts usually need to have played professionally to have any real credibility.

Edited 4 hours ago by UnbornTao

[cetus]

On 3/30/2026 at 11:15 PM, cetus said:

A plumber can connect a bunch of sewage pipe together and not know shit.

 

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

And being a scatologist doesn't necessarily qualify someone as a professional plumber.

We're talking different domains.

So, you agree with what I said in my original statement. 

*BTW- it was meant to be humorous. Should have added-  My bad.

[UnbornTao]

13 minutes ago, cetus said:

So, you agree with what I said in my original statement. 

*BTW- it was meant to be humorous. Should have added-  My bad.

Hard to tell sometimes. Okay, then.  

[Joseph Maynor]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Pretty much. When it comes to an ability, whether you can do it - and how well - is the measure of genuine understanding.

The opposite is believing you understand it, and/or understanding it conceptually. But the real proof lies in the doing.

I appreciate this.  We should attempt to show up in an area with some skill.  Otherwise it's all talk.