Leo

[UnbornTao]

Pointing out bullshit - the form of love that nobody likes (and so isn't perceived as such).

[Sincerity]

19 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Pointing out bullshit - the form of love that nobody likes (and so isn't perceived as such).

Bruh. You’re not listening at all, are you?

Edited 5 hours ago by Sincerity

[UnbornTao]

1 minute ago, Sincerity said:

Bruh. You’re not listening at all, are you?

It wasn't related to anything you said.

[Sincerity]

3 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

It wasn't related to anything you said.

Sorry then. Seemed very relevant to the discussion I’ve had with Carl.

Edited 4 hours ago by Sincerity

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Sincerity Interesting points.

I think some large factors that might push one into 'imposing love' - in an emergency, how immediate is the risk if there is a non-loving action taken? The override ends as soon as the danger passes. And more integrally - the intent is protection, not to exert any control.

Then there is transformational love - when love invites someone past their boundaries. Ones built from fear, shame, or outdated identity. This isn't about using force or overriding, I think it about CHALLENGING. This might be where Carl was headed (just spit-balling, no dog in this fight, just enjoy how this is going existential). So this challenging might be calling someone out when they would rather just hide or staying present when they normally push you away out of habit. Or refusing to enable self sabotage. It is critical to recognise intimacy is usually a prerequisite for how this type of loving care is received. And it CAN feel like a boundary violation, but the tension/pressure can lead to growth. We choose how to respond after all. Leo has a choice in how he responds.

This whole topic gets very murky though. You can twist and justify all kinds of shit. Possessive or consuming love can be justifying stuff. Crossing boundaries because you care so much, you don't know what is good for you etc. There can also be self violating forms of love - tolerating shit that drains you, abandoning our own needs, staying when everyone is screaming at you to leave.

At the same time love can be expressed by holding back, letting someone walk the path they are on. Not fix. Not save. Let them learn through their own self immolating behaviour.

All the delicious ways humans twist love, ay?

[integral]

Some people have very high trauma resistance.

Edited 3 hours ago by integral

[Eskilon]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

INTP/INTJ do not get traumatized easily.

Some people have very high trauma resistance.

Of course. You guys are basically half-dead, cant feel shit

[Natasha Tori Maru]

There could be something to the INTJ / INTP trauma resistance.

I throw INTJ and was in some turd circumstances in life as well as 3 siblings. I walked away with very little trauma compared to them. One is an addict, one has severe anxiety/panic attacks (to the point of medication and impaired functioning) and the last one relatively unscathed like myself. All test as INFP/ENTP - the ENTP being unscathed.

I really do think it depends on temperament, also. Everyone has a wide birth of emotional reactions, but in general most have a general base temperament they pivot around.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[integral]

5 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Of course. You guys are basically half-dead, cant feel shit

😂 well elon is pretty unstable in that way, wouldnt say its specific to types. More like stability comes with maturity.

The main trauma INTP/INTJ get is disgust for others. 

Edited 3 hours ago by integral

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, integral said:

😂 well elon is pretty unstable in that way, wouldnt say its specific to types. More like stability comes with maturity.

The main trauma INTP/INTJ get is disgust for others. 

I experience disgust and also contempt.

[integral]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There could be something to the INTJ / INTP trauma resistance.

I throw INTJ and was in some turd circumstances in life as well as 3 siblings. I walked away with very little trauma compared to them. One is an addict, one has severe anxiety/panic attacks (to the point of medication and impaired functioning) and the last one relatively unscathed like myself. All test as INFP/ENTP - the ENTP being unscathed.

I really do think it depends on temperament, also. Everyone has a wide birth of emotional reactions, but in general most have a general base temperament they pivot around.

Oh god INFP = Zero social resistance. Traumatized by most things people say. 

[Eskilon]

2 minutes ago, integral said:

😂 well elon is pretty unstable in that way, wouldnt say its specific to types.

Yeah, but the model does show priorities, so there's some truth to head types being insensitive to emotional stuff and texture of life in general. 

But also, the model is pretty limited too.

[integral]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I experience disgust and also contempt.

I never would of thought that! Can you give an example of this? 

[integral]

Just now, Eskilon said:

Yeah, but the model does show priorities, so there's some truth to head types being insensitive to emotional stuff and texture of life in general. 

But also, the model is pretty limited too.

Right, there is partial truth. 

[CARDOZZO]

What you need to listen only direct consciousness can give you "access". 

I think I got what @UnbornTao is trying to point out. My opinion is that there is no teacher or teaching above Truth. 

He is persistent on that because you are taking teachers words rather than directly experience for yourself what is True/Absolute Consciousness.

We all like Leo, his body of work and insights. Bear in mind that one day you will have to transcend Leo, Ralston, Wilber - and even psychedelics.

In the end, you/we are all alone. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 minutes ago, integral said:

I never would of thought that! Can you give an example of this? 

I mostly experience these emotions when I am dealing with certain family members.

One of my siblings is very transactional and controlling in nature. In addition, this member is fixated on material things, comparison, and requiring to feel important and above others, else they are so demolized their work and mood suffers. I have a lot of trouble maintaining cordial relations with them due to my intense dislike and disgust - that turns into contempt - for these behaviours. It very much can affect how I treat this person when I am having an off day. Because I recognise these qualities are rooted in deep deep self esteem and self value issues. So on the one hand I understand and have compassion - but I am frustrated by their unconscious unwillingness to admit any fault. I know they operate with the above principals from a place of pain. But their arrogance and hubris in claiming they have no such issues frustrates me a lot.

It is a large pain point for my whole family. A big chunk of conditioning I am working on.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Eskilon]

6 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

What you need to listen only direct consciousness can give you "access". 

I think I got what @UnbornTao is trying to point out. My opinion is that there is no teacher or teaching above Truth. 

He is persistent on that because you are taking teachers words rather than directly experience for yourself what is True/Absolute Consciousness.

We all like Leo, his body of work and insights. Bear in mind that one day you will have to transcend Leo, Ralston, Wilber - and even psychedelics.

In the end, you/we are all alone. 

I agree with you, but I feel @UnbornTao is basically a Leo critic at this point. The irony is that he believes in Ralston so it's funny to watch the fights happening here. 

Like you said elsewhere. Who has the biggest spiritual dick contest.

Edited 3 hours ago by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

We all like Leo, his body of work and insights. Bear in mind that one day you will have to transcend Leo, Ralston, Wilber - and even psychedelics.

This is why I repeat we eventually need to throw it all away. All seeking ends. Else you create another ground to identify with

Quote

He is persistent on that because you are taking teachers words rather than directly experience for yourself what is True/Absolute Consciousness.

I understand this also - but I think there are only tells from people and assumptions and inferences we make from their expression. In the end, I personally think it is my own arrogance to think I know what another person has directly experienced.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, Eskilon said:

I agree with you, and @UnbornTao is basically a Leo critic at this point. The irony is that he believes in Ralston so it's funny to watch the fights happening here. 

NGL the mirroring is hilarious >.<

[integral]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I mostly experience these emotions when I am dealing with certain family members.

One of my siblings is very transactional and controlling in nature. In addition, this member is fixated on material things, comparison, and requiring to feel important and above others, else they are so demolized their work and mood suffers. I have a lot of trouble maintaining cordial relations with them due to my intense dislike and disgust - that turns into contempt - for these behaviours. It very much can affect how I treat this person when I am having an off day. Because I recognise these qualities are rooted in deep deep self esteem and self value issues. So on the one hand I understand and have compassion - but I am frustrated by their unconscious unwillingness to admit any fault. I know they operate with the above principals from a place of pain. But their arrogance and hubris in claiming they have no such issues frustrates me a lot.

It is a large pain point for my whole family. A big chunk of conditioning I am working on.

It's tough when it's family because there's a deeper obligation and you can't cut them off for the most part.

I've had people in my life like this, and I was able to cut them off.

The family members I have that I don't wanna deal with I limit contact to as little as possible.

In the end, it's not healthy to be exposed to toxic people. It doesn't matter how developed or mature or enlightened a person is. Constant exposure to toxic people is unhealthy.

It would be better if you had a big break from them and had no contact for a while to get a fresh perspective. That might help the healing or development process.