A Disturbing Truth About Spiritual Teachings

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys keep beating a dead horse.

Some people aren't smart enough to pick their battles 💀

Energy investment 

[AtmanIsBrahman]

I've been reading the discussion, and I think one important question is, What is understanding? 

There has to be some way that awakening, enlightenment, or becoming conscious of truth is happening

@UnbornTao Is understanding an experience or not? 

Maybe what you mean by experience is anything that is not the absolute, but that still leaves some questions open: Are you actually conscious of the absolute? What is the difference between an experience and understanding? Since understanding is always something you experience, how is it not an experience?

[zurew]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Impossible to know.

Its not impossible.

You can just run the convo periodically again and see how he responds to it.

If he responds with something similar to "I am the most awake, and everyone else is still full of shit" then from that you can safely infer that he still holds the exact same attitude and position.

Edited 3 hours ago by zurew

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, zurew said:

Its not impossible.

You can just run the convo periodically again and see how he responds to it.

Ah! I meant - impossible to know if it was genuinely taken on board, considered, and rejected. Or if it was simply speed read over and no attempt was made to understand. 

I do agree there are some ways to deduct it though 

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Ah! I meant - impossible to know if it was genuinely taken on board, considered, and rejected. Or if it was simply speed read over and no attempt was made to understand. 

I do agree there are some ways to deduct it though 

Okay, then we dont disagree.

[Miguel1]

On 11/03/2026 at 9:02 PM, Leo Gura said:

It it possible to have an Awakening but then get very deluded about it. As a Christian might do. Because they don't have the epistemic foundation.

I once read a theory somewhere that Christianty was born because a bunch of people walked back and forth through woods that had bushes emitting DMT in gas form 

[Sincerity]

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

It is something perceived, thought, imagined, felt, sensed, intuited, or conceived - in other words, invented.

You don't experience anything else. And everything is equally invented then - which checks out. I acknowledge that even my awakenings to the Absolute are "invented", in that they are still limited, even if being recognitions of higher-order compared to the daily state.

But be honest: you are speaking of something that transcends experience. Based on what? Are you there? Are you enlightened? And if not, then what are you talking about? You are just repeating beliefs (probably from Ralston) and not approaching it from genuine beginner's mind.

I said that I won't comment on "enlightenment" as it's described by you because I don't know about that. That is epistemic humility. What are you talking about?

I trust that if enlightenment exists, the truth-seeking process would guide me to it if that's in the cards for me. In whatever way is needed - through drugs or not. It doesn't matter. But again, this enlightenment isn't a goal of mine, especially since I don't know whether it exists. That, to me, is the proper attitude. One I can be confident in because I'm not believing/assuming anything per se.

And so far I was guided to profound God-realizations and other awakenings. That I have no intention to dismiss as "just temporary experiences bro". You learn things throughout the journey, you discover them over and over, and they start permeating you. To me, this is literally just how life works.

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

If you begin to make headway in differentiating between experience and something that isn't - or that perhaps transcends experience (even if just as a notion) - or in seeing that experience is relative, then you'll start to get the gist of it. A grandiose experience of feeling one with the universe is still an experience. Experience is also your whole life - again, everything you're aware of.

Or, you know, you can re-see dozens of times that experience is God. And it's not just about "a grandiose experience". It's not just "relative". Again, to me, you are in denial. You insist of something beyond experience (which is probably just your belief), and reject the validity of anything else - even though everything else is literally every moment. One you're writing from right now. And anything you'll ever see or understand will come from it.

Now is God. Experience is God. Sorry, but it must take some huge mental gymnastics to reject your own recognition and go on a path of opposition to that. Because "I conceived it, so it's not true". Because that was just an "experience". Because it's "relative". In favour of believed "enlightenment". To me, these are like defense mechanisms invented to keep you from embracing God.

I am trying to respond to your precise points. And I truly think that I understand your perspective better now. But I don't agree with it. I've walked my path and came to my own understanding (so far). What you're saying simply doesn't resonate.

You're saying that everyone around you should listen. But are you? Honestly. Are you open as you think you are?

@UnbornTao I don't feel like you're usually responding to my precise questions and points. So to recap:

1. Where are you getting the notion of "enlightenment" from, "something that transcends experience"? Did you conceive it yourself, or did you take it as a belief? Are you enlightened? If not, what gives you the right to confidently talk about something that you're not living?
2. Define what seeking truth is to you.
3. Are you listening? Are you open?

Edited 15 minutes ago by Sincerity

[Sincerity]

6 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Some people aren't smart enough to pick their battles 💀

Energy investment 

It's been worth my time. I don’t feel jaded with this discussion at all.

I see better now what the major philosophical difference is. Which draws a contrast between the two perspectives and helped me recognize my own understanding better. I see more clearly what the other side thinks and I have a more informed opinion on that now (because I understand him better).

And now that I understand it better, I can basically know these arguments forever. So I won't have to repeat the full conversation and I won't have to worry that I might be closed-minded and rejecting something that I don't understand. My conscience is clear.

Edited 2 minutes ago by Sincerity