I disagree with the forum

[Eskilon]

3 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Hmm I agree kids are a responsibility. Slow you down, I am not sure I agree with that. I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by slow you down. Being responsible for spiritual work, what does that even mean? I don’t separate anything in life from spiritual work. What’s interesting to me is you start your post off along the same line of thinking on how I’d categorized kids, it’s not separate. The “so what” of it cuts both ways and it’s just deciding which way you want to go. 

Spiritual work = life = kids = money = relationships = responsibility = everything. 

It's not all equal from a relative perspective, we are not talking from an absolute perspective. There are tradeoffs for everything you choose in life, including having kids. There's a reason spiritual seekers don't choose nightclub floors to meditate, but instead they mostly choose a quiet place. The same way can be said for having children, there's a reason many masters didnt have them, or even abandoned their wife and children to do the work.

[Carl-Richard]

31 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Yeah, but so is everything else. I do think the bottom-line is that having kids will slow you down, because its more responsability on your shoulders. Spiritual work is a great enough responsability as it is.

If your priority is direct spiritual work, quit your job. But it's not your main priority. It's life. Life might contain having children for some people, if not most people if they are honest and not self-deceived. And when life is not enough, then direct spiritual practice might become the priority. And that way, life is a part of the spiritual practice as @Lyubov says. It's where you eventually end up by living life. And of course spirituality might happen along the way, without single-handed focus on whatever practice you think is most efficient or necessary.

Odds are, if you have a job, your spiritual practice is already piss tiny, so having kids won't cut into it, probably only the few hours you spend on scrolling TikTok or other internet trash (like forums, youtube, news sites).

Edited 12 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Oppositionless]

@Natasha Tori Maru  I'm so excited for spring and going outside and looking at flowers more

 

@Joseph Maynor yeah I'm starting to chill out too. I did kriya yoga every day for ~7 weeks and realized this morning I didn't do it. Not was too lazy I just completely didn't remember.

[Eskilon]

16 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If your priority is direct spiritual work, quit your job. But it's not your main priority. It's life. Life might contain having children for some people, if not most people if they are honest and not self-deceived. And when life is not enough, then direct spiritual practice might become the priority. And that way, life is a part of the spiritual practice as @Lyubov says. It's where you eventually end up by living life. And of course spirituality might happen along the way, without single-handed focus on whatever practice you think is most efficient or necessary.

Never said life is not a part of spiritual practice, look at Sadhguru, the guy dont stop at one place, his agenda is full to the brim, but you also have to look the insane ammount of work he did prior to this involvement with life. I am not life negative. But dont kid yourself thinking there are no tradeoffs to things. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It is a fact that the more "mundane" responsabilities the seeker have the less time he would have to pursue the way. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Eskilon

[Lyubov]

14 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

It's not all equal from a relative perspective, we are not talking from an absolute perspective. There are tradeoffs for everything you choose in life, including having kids. There's a reason spiritual seekers don't choose nightclub floors to meditate, but instead they mostly choose a quiet place. The same way can be said for having children, there's a reason many masters didnt have them, or even abandoned their wife and children to do the work.

Well I don’t know why you are doing spiritual work then if it isn’t about living from a place of absolute reverence and trust in the absolute perspective. Of course if you judge everything relatively you will see in what ways they are relative and different and you can run yourself in circles doing that. I’m not even saying that’s a problem because I can encompass where that is needed to live in the middle. I would say you have a bias towards only seeing “masters” who confirm your worldview of what you think spirituality should look like. There are plenty of spiritual people who had kids. It lead to almost 8 billion of them on the earth right now. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Having children can be part of spiritual practice. 

If that is not realized, then some more contemplation is needed. 

Or, just having them 😁

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Never said life is not a part of spiritual practice, look at Sadhguru, the guy dont stop at one place, his agenda is full to the brim. That's not the point. I am not life negative. But dont kid yourself thinking there are not tradeoffs to things. It is a fact that the more "mundane" responsabilities the seeker have the less time he would have to pursue the way. 

Out of all the things to be skeptical of, in terms of time expenditure, resources, etc., having children is not it. You're already way inside a societal scheme by having a job and the expectations and assumptions related to that (having your own finances, expenditures, place to live, friends, status, marriage, heh - children), huge time sink, huge resource sink. Once you are in that scheme, then adding children on top is like nothing. "But I can't afford that little extra". Bahaha - why? You can't skim a few hours of your internet or other hobbies? Having children is the most epic hobby you can have.

And look, it's objectively nothing:

Even 0-6 years old, you spend more time accidentally scrolling TikTok. And most of that time can probably be parallel processed while eating dinner or simply resting after dinner or something.

Edited 3 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Eskilon]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

is not it

it is, children is not the same as "things" such as work, hobbies and the such. But have at it, I won't change your mind.

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

it is, children is not the same as "things" such as work, hobbies and the such. But have at it, I won't change your mind.

Thoughts on the stats I showed?

[Eskilon]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Thoughts on the stats I showed?

It's irrelevant what I think because your mind is already made-up. But, even if the stats show few minutes, that doesnt say anything about if it is the right ammount, or any other complexities of having children involves. Also, its data from the US only which may not be applicable to other nation with different economic and social situations.

[Lyubov]

I remember there’s a cliche often discussed here where we would basically say dressing up as a hippy and doing the whole kumbaya schtick doesn’t make you more spiritual. Having kids doesn’t make you less spiritual. And it definitely doesn’t make you more of an adult or valid member of society either. It’s just another choice in life you are responsible for which some people are more prepared or willing to make vs others. It comes with its own ups and downs and I’m sure beautiful and challenging moments as well. I’d say as I fall into my flow I see having a child is almost an inevitability while living a balanced life, but that’s just my situation.  

Edited 11 hours ago by Lyubov

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

It's irrelevant what I think because your mind is already made-up.

You're such a mind-reader. Where did you learn these powers? Some Leo course I haven't heard of? Almost as powerful as "you don't understand what I'm talking about".

 

4 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

But, even if the stats show few minutes, that doesnt say anything about if it is the right ammount, or any other complexities of having children involves. Also, its data from the US only which may not be applicable to other nation with different economic and social situations.

Yet you make generalizations on whether having a children is a waste of time or not. I just don't believe that time will eat off your spirituality budget, unless you're of course not an average parenter (that's always the assumption, which is the one you're making yourself).

[Eskilon]

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You're such a mind-reader. Where did you learn these powers? Some Leo course I haven't heard of? Almost as powerful as "you don't understand what I'm talking about".

You're too predictable, no mind-reading needed lmao.

 

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yet you make generalizations on whether having a children is a waste of time or not.

I did make a point, you're interpreting as generalization, thats on you. 

[Carl-Richard]

Let's also add that if you care about those 1h45m so much, get your children to clean and do shit around the house (works from probably age 5 and onwards). Boom — efficiency. And at more advanced levels, they can even cook you dinner (works at around 12 and onwards). On average for a 18 year run, you might even save time overall (in fact, you definitely will as 1h45m is only from 0-6). And even after 18, they will help you with shit, even big things like moving a house.

Edited 11 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

29 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

You're too predictable, no mind-reading needed lmao.

This is just rhetorical garbage.

 

29 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

I did make a point, you're interpreting as generalization, thats on you. 

So your generalization that "parenting feeds off your spirituality budget" is not a generalization and therefore other generalizations like "this is how much time the average parent spends on their kids" do not matter at all? Hmmmmm.

Edited 10 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[WonderSeeker]

8 hours ago, Human Mint said:

The problem of why so many people are disinterested these days is because there really are few examples of good parenting in general, and most people's experiences growing up is that it sucked. And so it is really hard to get inspired into having kids. But honestly it is a great medium for deepening your love to reality.

The vast majority are not happy with their upbringing, so they have no idea how beautiful it can be.

There aren't many good examples of parenting and people's financial lives are piss poor (I'm currently fixing mine).

The main keys are fixing your money situation, finding the right mate, and then getting excited about giving your own the kind of upbringing you wish you got.

If I actually follow though with this, I will provide for my kid(s), give them tons of freedom, encourage (but never force) reading tons of books, learning from different perspectives, and doing brave things (travelling, starting a business, dating girls/guys, etc). I think having a kid and finding a way to keep a solid career and spiritual life, while being his/her biggest role model is everything.

Of course, all of that is the ideal. If you raise your kids in mainstream society, other kids' beliefs, processed foods from school, TV/YT shows, advertising, and all sorts of other potentially toxic parts of society can pull them in the wrong directions. Of course, the point isn't to fight this, but to let them stumble through some of it.

I'm lucky my parents were not authoritarian (for the most part). I used the freedom they gave me to explore the internet, travel to different parts of the region I was from for sports, have different friends, and read different kinds of books. The only place where they fucked up is their hands off mentality sometimes turned into avoidence, and there were a shit load of things they didn't teach or show me which made me feel unprepared when I moved out for the first time at 18. But that's just how it was being in a working class household with burnt-out parents.

8 hours ago, Lyubov said:

A lot of people don’t realize that having a kid is one of the most spiritual experiences you can have. There’s something unexplainable that comes over a room when you’re in a room when a person passes away, the same thing takes over when a person is born. 

Good point. I think as long as you don't have a schizoid psychology, for most people witnessing birth/death slows time down and bonds people together. 

When our pet rabbit died a few years back, me my bothers, and my parents all gathered around him in a circle where he passed just moments before. We just sat there, present, petting his fur, crying quietly. No words, but we all felt hyper-connected. Completely unorchestrated.

Haven't experienced the birth side yet, but I can only imagine it's something similar.

7 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Hmm I agree kids are a responsibility. Slow you down, I am not sure I agree with that. I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by slow you down. Being responsible for spiritual work, what does that mean? I don’t separate anything in life from spiritual work, which I believe I’m responsible for my life. What’s interesting to me is you start your post off along the same line of thinking on how I’d categorized kids, it’s not separate. The “so what” of it cuts both ways and it’s just deciding which way you want to go. 

Spiritual work = life = kids = money = relationships = careers = life purpose = responsibility = everything. 

Yeah. It's like people think all spiritual work is, is living in a log cabin by yourself, meditating or taking psychedelics, and that's it. You can't get rid of your whole life and claim that's the most spiritual way to be. Sure, some like Om Swami did it for a little while, but he's not most people. Why not fill your life up with what gives you meaning? Then make all of that into a spiritual expression.

Ken Wilber: transcend and include. 
This forum: transcend-only, because we don't wanna be responsible for survival.

Edited 4 hours ago by WonderSeeker
Typos and revisions

[bazera]

29 minutes ago, WonderSeeker said:

Ken Wilber: transcend and include. 

Does he have children?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@WonderSeeker I've been present for birth (my brother's) and death (my grandfather's).

These two moments are so intense. You are literally witnessing Truth express itself through living organisms; division, union, love & God all at once. 

There are no words.

[bazera]

Quote

Let's also add that if you care about those 1h45m so much, get your children to clean and do shit around the house (works from probably age 5 and onwards). Boom — efficiency. And at more advanced levels, they can even cook you dinner (works at around 12 and onwards).

Sounds like a slavery with extra steps 😂

[bazera]

I think having children is a deeply personal choise that depends on so many things. If you are struggling in life, having kids will make it even worse I think. If you have abundance in resources, it's easier choise to make, Elon Musk has like 14 children or something. 

But I'm leaning more towards agreeing with @Eskilon

I like solitude, I don't like children much, I love my alone time and the possibilities that it creates. I think adding a family / child would disrupt that. 

Of course you might argue that adding a huge responsibility can put more pressure on you to develop yourself. That's right, it can. But you might want to spend days in solitude contemplating, figuring stuff out, etc, that you might not be able to do with a child, or at least do in a limited way. You could also take responsibility in some other ways. 

Of course child will give you meaning, but there are other ways to derive meaning out of life, isn't it?

As for spirituality, I think you guys are talking from the point after you have some realizations, then rasing a child becomes an expression of something you've realized (love, god, etc).

But what if you're confused as hell, you're struggling to keep up with the practices because you don't see much progress, you're dabbling with psychedelics to figure out stuff, you don't have much realizations to understand what's all these really about, in other words, you are a spiritual noob but want to progress on the path and grok the nature of yourself, and boom --- you have a child. Do you think that child will help with the spiritual aspirations?

I have 2-3 friends around with new born babies (0-12 month olds) and their life is filled with job + raising a child, nothing else, they have no time / energy to engage in other things.