Leo can't fix you because you are Neurodivergent

[CARDOZZO]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This is true.  But how does one develop this consistency? -- which requires a change -- or else there would be no problem.

It depends on your uniqueness. How do you experience reality? What is consistency? 

The catch is that there is no one to really do it for yourself. Society teaches you to look for solutions outside of yourself, to mirror other people. 

[CARDOZZO]

1 hour ago, Cred said:

So my advice regarding consistency is the same as with hard work. Try to avoid it.

The problem is that we can't reinvent society from scratch to fit specific kinds of minds. It is sad. This is why you can learn to fit or you have to create new kinds of ways to navigate reality and survive on planet earth.

Whatever you do in this world, you need process, steps, consistency, beginning, medium and end, actions, direction, clarity,

[Hojo]

@PenguinPablo

The emotion was listening and the person was smiling gently . No emotional multiple choice and there's no way to know.

[LambdaDelta]

4 hours ago, Cred said:

This was not a real manic crash out. “Yes, learning about ND will solve your problems Lmao” was a manic crash out I give you that. Also, the response I initially prepared is a manic crash out (It’s really fun I need to post it somewhere, so people can admire it lol). But do you really think this tiny crash out wasn’t even a little bit justified? 

You need to realize that “I don’t really have any hobbies” is an incredibly disingenuous argument. Also, it’s not even true. Do you really think that collecting masks and fossils does not count as a hobby just because he posts about it in his blog? Give me a break. He obviously lied to weasel himself out of this discussion (in some ways this is fair, he is a busy man after all. I’m not inherently against weaseling). That’s already bad and worth a little crash out. But what’s even worse is the possibility that he didn’t just lie to us, but he also lied to himself (which is actually more likely imo).

Post it if you like, we all have the guilty pleasure of watching public meltdowns/freakouts. But in the end you'll have to decide what is your highest priority — having fun or getting the message across; there are tricky & delicate ways to do both, but the secondary must necessarily be sacrificed and compromised in service of the primary.  
And no, I don't think it's justified even if what you say in the next paragraph is the reality of the situation, because I hold myself to certain standards of emotional maturity, which includes maintaining self-control even in (or rather, especially) the face of offense. More fundamentally, your interpretation could simply be wrong. 

The content of his comment is irrelevant, whether it's factually true or not is not the issue. Consider that people feel justified trolling your posts because they're presented in a way conducive to that. What you perceive as a serious, albeit dishonest argument, in reality is nothing more than a snarky offhand comment (there's also the possibility that what each of you defines as a 'hobby' differs drastically, but there's not enough time in the world to explicate such nuance).  
Leo has made multiple asinine and vulgar comments on this forum over the years, but what of it? Think of the entirety of Actualized.org as a building — the rooftop is the channel videos and course(s) where you breathe pristine air of philosophy, middle & ground floors are the blog/booklist, and the forum is the basement — a testing ground for new ideas and a platform to connect to like-minded people on the best of days, but usually just a cesspool of spiritual ego clashes, repetitive & trivial platitudes, shitposting, whining and venting about politics or dating or whatever. Even if you start a serious discussion presented in a proper manner, it likely still won't get any significant engagement, while the garbage has dozens of pages, but the quality of posts in such threads will itself be garbage. The truth is that we're not as different from other communities as we like to believe.  
Didn't Leo say time and time again that humans do not care about truth, that not caring about truth is corruption, and that he's still not above corruption? Connect the dots, there's your answer. 
I say this while having my own disagreements with the guy, particularly regarding the imprecise and inefficient ways of administering psychedelics he continues to promote (sometimes even using toxic masculine rhetoric) without realizing they really only work so well due to his uniquely sensitive genetics but yield mediocre results for the average person, or his repeated failures to deliver on courses promised (alien awakening, subconscious reprogramming). He doesn't even reply to my posts anymore, which I briefly used to take personally, but it obviously isn't, and even if it were, I don't care; in fact it was a healthy and necessary experience to unburden myself from dependency on approval and attention of someone I look up to. What's the solution? In the former case, I say my piece, lay out the arguments, and move on; whether it's taken under advisement is neither my concern nor responsibility, as I'm not the one wasting my trips/substances, sharing my knowledge is contribution enough. In the latter, I take it upon myself to develop and implement these techniques from scratch, and if the courses finally end up materializing, I'll still take them and find positive synergies that'll create something greater than the sum of its parts. Sovereignty of mind, interpretation, recontextualization, content vs. structure, self-awareness, truthful perception, holistic & strategic thinking — all these core teachings are at play here. Instead of focusing on Leo's inadequacies, which is a distraction, treat it as an opportunity to test how much you actually understand and are able to effectively utilize these principles. Speaking from experience, chances are you're in for a rude awakening, which is why that's the last thing anyone wants to do. 
 

4 hours ago, Cred said:

It's necessary to note, that I'm more strict with Leo than with other people here, not because of ego, but because it is his responsibility to help this community to heal. Much more than it is my responsibility.

Your responsibility is to hold yourself accountable, not him. That's the real work. The standards of integrity and truthfulness you're demanding are so high that this ironically makes them untruthful. 
And here's the test of your love — are you willing to sacrifice the need to maintain your current incoherent communication style, as a start, in order to practically impart your insights on ND? If not, well, that's just the current extent of it. But it gets worse. This year I'll create the most extensive guide to psychedelics to date, which will require at least 100 hours of work and performing several potentially life-threatening experiments on myself, all the while being fully aware it's quite likely to fall into obscurity or get straight up disallowed because it's "too dangerous" or something. That's how truth and love interrelate in the relative domain — you must clearly see that the vast majority simply won't care no matter what you do, not judging them for it, and yet have faith that just a few will get the message and spread the love in whichever ways they're capable. Which is what Leo has been doing all along, so appreciate and get inspired by it. Well, I suppose you are inspired, but the execution needs a whole lot of adjustment, and that starts with taking a step back and reflecting, not doubling down.

Edited Monday at 07:52 PM by LambdaDelta

[Carl-Richard]

Since Dr. K seems to talk about both neurodivergence and Puer Aeternus, he should probably talk about the possible tension between them. Because it's easy to use dysfunctionalizing yourself as an excuse to not grow up.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

24 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Since Dr. K seems to talk about both neurodivergence and Puer Aeternus, he should probably talk about the possible tension between them. Because it's easy to use dysfunctionalizing yourself as an excuse to not grow up.

🎯 

I don't like when individuals are empowered and don't take responsibility.

[Basman]

16 hours ago, Sobanya said:

I love the idea you brought up about NTs and NDs and that NDs' lives are mostly lived in stress and "hard mode". Distrust, misundersranding, suppression, but on the other hand, I can explore and link great things that NTs just cannot experience by themselves alone without my help

Sometimes I think if this ND thing of mine is just a longterm product of my early-triggered survival instincts. My family is a mine field, I had to be aware of subtle shifts in the mood of people around me not to be caught in painful crossfire, so you're always on high alert on some level. It sounded like heaven when I heard and saw other people's family/friends interactions. I as ND lacked that and didn't experience much connection/understanding/meaning/identification, but when I get it, oh boy is it a good fucking life.

I think it's very important for NDs to never stop trying to connect to the world around and carve our individual paths to God. God will then lead you to love, or the other way around

Autism and CPTSD can have similar symptoms relative to the social domain. 

[Basman]

I find the initial ideas about ND here interesting but lack the basic rigor to really take seriously. Knowledge is treated as exhaustive in a prescriptive manner while being based on broad generalizations and hard assumptions. The way that neurotypical people are flattened and charicatured borders on being like Incel logic. You might as well start calling them NPCs or something while your at it.

[Cred]

@Basman I'm not here to bore you or myself with long technical definitions and endless distinctions. I'm simply not the guy for that job. I'm here to share my insights. You can deconstruct them and split hairs all you want. It does not change the deep truth about my claims. You should ask yourself why you focus so much on nitpicking instead of trying to listen.

Edited Monday at 11:50 PM by Cred

[Cred]

First of all, I think it’s great that you defend Leo and give him the benefit of the doubt. I don’t want to fight with the dragon if it’s not necessary.

3 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

Consider that people feel justified trolling your posts because they're presented in a way conducive to that.

That's totally fair.

3 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

his repeated failures to deliver on courses promised

Yeah making promises is one of those kryptonite things for many NDs again. I think this is totally relatable.

3 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

Speaking from experience, chances are you're in for a rude awakening, which is why that's the last thing anyone wants to do.

You are talking about him like some kind of dragon that comes around town from time to time spitting fire at people lol

3 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

a testing ground for new ideas and a platform to connect to like-minded people on the best of days, but usually just a cesspool of spiritual ego clashes, repetitive & trivial platitudes, shitposting, whining and venting about politics or dating or whatever.

 

3 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

The truth is that we're not as different from other communities as we like to believe.

Maybe I’m too idealistic, but I don’t think it has to be this way. I believe that one of, if not THE root cause of this could be the unawareness of exactly in what way the society currently oppresses people with our specific traits. Is this really so far-fetched?

3 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

But in the end you'll have to decide what is your highest priority — having fun or getting the message across; there are tricky & delicate ways to do both, but the secondary must necessarily be sacrificed and compromised in service of the primary.  

I’m kinda done with this whole perfectionism thing. You can shove tricky and delicate up your ass (with love). I outright reject this whole “did I really execute everything perfectly did I not make any error is everyone happy am I good enough??????”. I believe this fundamentally comes from a place of self-hatred. My message to people is that they should accept themselves. If I would carefully adjust everything I do here like walking on eggshells, I would completely undermine this point. 

I don’t judge Leo or anyone here for their defensiveness (actually people are a lot less defensive recently which is nice to see). I suggest you people read my post about narcissistic coping and ND. I actually think it’s a great way of coping with ND oppression from society in order to be more functional. However, I’m pointing out these patterns so we can learn from them together. 

Edited Monday at 11:27 PM by Cred

[Basman]

17 minutes ago, Cred said:

@Basman I'm not here to bore you or myself with long technical definitions and endless distinctions. I'm simply not the guy for that job. I'm here to share my insights. You can deconstruct them and split hairs all you want. It does not change the deep truth about my claims. You should ask yourself why you focus so much on nitpicking instead of trying to listen.

Claiming truth or expertise doesn't automatically make it so.

[Cred]

I've since edited the original message and adding more text, but I will remove the edits and just post them here to uphold chronology.

Edit: I just saw that you started following this thread ten minutes before leaving the message. From your reply, I got the vibe, that you don't like my style of communication and are not interested in following this thread further.

I think your reaction is kinda justified. Like I think your distinction between ADHD and CPTSD is interesting, but I want to get the most obvious high level stuff out of my system first. Also, I haven't even begun talking about my personal experience with ND people.

I think it's funny that you compare my rhetoric with Incel language lol. Again, I don't have anything against working on a model and keep refining it, but we need the foundation first before we can build on top or carve something away.

Edit 2: I think it's frustrating to me when people tell me "You need to be more detailed and explain how you came to these conclusions", because It's already time consuming enough getting all my insights down to words. So this would really help: If you see a specific point I make and you don't see how I came to that conclusion, then ask me about it. 

 

Edited Monday at 11:51 PM by Cred

[LambdaDelta]

17 minutes ago, Cred said:

Yeah making promises is one of those kryptonite things for many NDs again. I think this is totally relatable.

He also said that he's done with making promises, but since then made at least 2 promises I can remember that weren't delivered either. A funny meta dynamic. But yes, relatable indeed, I'm guilty of that too. 
 

18 minutes ago, Cred said:

You are talking about him like some kind of dragon that comes around town from time to time spitting fire at people lol

Not at all, in fact forget about Leo altogether, he's just a talking head as far as you're concerned, no different than a news anchor. What I am talking about is the danger of listening to this content for dozens, maybe hundreds of hours, thinking you're developing yourself, but then being unable to apply it in practice. 
 

27 minutes ago, Cred said:

Maybe I’m too idealistic, but I don’t think it has to be this way. I believe that one of, if not THE root cause of this could be the unawareness of exactly in what way the society currently oppresses people with our specific traits. Is this really so far-fetched?

'We' not as in the ND community, but the Actualized.org community. There are NDs as well as NTs here and everything in-between. Structurally, and even oftentimes content-wise this forum is more similar to Reddit/X than it is different. Can't be helped, Aaron Swartz also had a very different vision for Reddit than how it turned out. Perhaps in the future some major restructuring could take place. The larger issue of society relating to ND I'm not prepared to discuss at present. 
 

41 minutes ago, Cred said:

I believe this fundamentally comes from a place of self-hatred. My message to people is that they should accept themselves. If I would carefully adjust everything I do here like walking on eggshells, I would completely undermine this point. 

It can, but doesn't have to. It can also stem from standards you consciously set for yourself, one of which is a healthy balance between self-acceptance/self-forgiveness and ruthless self-improvement through radical responsibility. Careful with holding acceptance as an absolute virtue &or placing the blame on societal discrimination, without nuance it'll turn toxic in the blink of an eye. Had I just blindly accepted myself (the severe ADHD) I'd be rotting in bed catatonically doomscrolling while doing drugs right now (which is how I spent several months of the last year) instead of taking actionable steps to navigate life to the best of my ability. 
There's neurotic perfectionism, and there's sloppiness; you want neither extreme. The golden mean is an earnest striving for excellence. 

This old obscure video might be helpful:

 

1 hour ago, Cred said:

I suggest you people read my post about narcissistic coping and ND. I actually think it’s a great way of coping with ND oppression from society in order to be more functional. However, I’m pointing out these patterns so we can learn from them together. 

I did and it makes some good points, but it doesn't apply to my particular case, although I cannot fully deny a minor degree of overlap.

[Basman]

3 hours ago, Cred said:

Edit: I just saw that you started following this thread ten minutes before leaving the message. From your reply, I got the vibe, that you don't like my style of communication and are not interested in following this thread further.

It is a matter of substance, not style. Like, why do you assume that I'm not interested in the topic? You have a habit of jumping to conclusions.

[Cred]

11 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

self-improvement through radical responsibility

To me this sounds like NT self-help propaganda. I know that I brought this word into the discussion but I personally don't believe in it, since I'm a moral relativist and also, it might very well be one of those kryptonite things again.

11 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

Careful with holding acceptance as an absolute virtue &or placing the blame on societal discrimination, without nuance it'll turn toxic

Yes we definitely need to deepen the discussion around the

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Puer Aeternus

(Peter Pan person). I think there is a lot of nuance to be gained when we do this. In very short, my take is, that the "degenerate gamer" types engage in escapism because of their self-hatred, stemming from the fact they can't live up to NT-ideals. I believe that, paradoxically, enabling them can lead to them getting on track to finding their authentic place separate from NT world.

11 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

I did [read your post about narcissism] and it makes some good points, but it doesn't apply to my particular case, although I cannot fully deny a minor degree of overlap.

I think genetically, some people are more prone to cope with self loathing while others tend to cope with narcissism. I think it's a spectrum again. Maybe covert narcissists are narcissist with a pint more self loathing idk. This would be interesting to explore.

If you happen to grow up in a very ND aware environment, it's possible that none of this is an issue for you (addressed at the reader). Also, quick reminder that NT-ND is a spectrum.

Me and most of the ND people I know personally tend to engage in self loathing.

11 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

That being said, I think Cred is a great guy, and he has a very large penis

Thanks for that! Also I think your penis is great too 😳

[Carl-Richard]

16 hours ago, Cred said:

(Peter Pan person). I think there is a lot of nuance to be gained when we do this. In very short, my take is, that the "degenerate gamer" types engage in escapism because of their self-hatred, stemming from the fact they can't live up to NT-ideals. I believe that, paradoxically, enabling them can lead to them getting on track to finding their authentic place separate from NT world.

Which is what, playing more videogames and continuing being a NEET? This "separate from the world" thinking is exactly the kind of trap I'm warning about. You're not separate from the world just because you never dared to expose yourself to a slightly more uncomfortable challenge than waking up and turning on your computer.

You will very well end up as someone who thinks they are separate from the world if you are not challenged. Me going to university was a challenge imposed on me by my mother, but I learned that it was more for me than I had ever realized. Through challenge you might find strengths you never realized you had. And it will lead to finding value you did not know existed.

Take this as someone who has spent more than 10000 hours on one single videogame.

Likewise, of all the people I know in real life who I consider ND (leaning autistic), they are all well-educated, well-functioning members of society. If anything, the more normal ones or those more like me (I don't consider myself in any statistically significant way autistic, if anything, I'm on the opposite extreme) are the ones struggling. Some even died of overdoses.

There is a fine line between enabling authenticity and enabling immature dysfunction. What that line is might be something like "try this out and see if you like it", "work on this for a while and see what happens". You don't have to be thrown to the flames of reality with threats of abandonment or isolation from those who support you, but that might also work.

Edited 18 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Which is what, playing more videogames and continuing being a NEET? This "separate from the world" thinking is exactly the kind of trap I'm warning about. You're not separate from the world just because you never dared to expose yourself to a slightly more uncomfortable challenge than waking up and turning on your computer.

You will very well end up as someone who thinks they are separate from the world if you are not challenged. Me going to university was a challenge imposed on me by my mother, but I learned that it was more for me than I had ever realized. Through challenge you might find strengths you never realized you had. And it will lead to finding value you did not know existed.

Take this as someone who has spent more than 10000 hours on one single videogame.

Likewise, of all the people I know in real life who I consider ND (leaning autistic), they are all well-educated, well-functioning members of society. If anything, the more normal ones or those more like me (I don't consider myself very autistic) are the ones struggling. Some even died of overdoses. There is a fine line between enabling authenticity and enabling immature dysfunction. What that line is might be something like "try this out and see if you like it", "work on this for a while and see what happens". You don't have to be thrown to the flames of reality with threats of abandonment or isolation from those who support you, but that might also work.

Not to mention - society operates on a give/take principal.

You cannot expect to benefit from from all of the support of society and not provide any value back. If you take and avoid contributing, your not opting out of society, or 'NT world'. You're being somewhat carried by it. You necessarily need to be carried by it in times of hardship (illness, injury, childhood, crisis), that is what compassion is for. But I am against it as a STANCE.

Power, medical, water, gas, buildings, infrastructure. Support workers, teaching, skilled labour, care. So much work people put in to keep these networks & systems running for all of our mutual benefit.

This is no moralising either - it is just reality.

I do not wish to appear to be judging someone's worth only by what they can bring/be useful as. 

But if we benefit from the collective, I might consider I owe something back.

 

[Cred]

Fuck yeah, we are now definitely getting to the juicy part of all of this, which is: "What does all of this mean for my actual life?"

It is important to note that answering this question and living according to the insights stemming from it, is a work in progress for me too. 

Before continuing, I want to point out that I don't want to talk any of you into believing that they should regret any past life choices. I sure as hell don't. ALL of your life experience is valuable, ESPECIALLY the bad decisions you've made. Also, I fundamentally reject the idea of regretting ANYthing.

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You will very well end up as someone who thinks they are separate from the world if you are not challenged.

There is truth to this, but you have a very dangerous flaw in your argumentation, which is this: Why do you assume, that challenges have to be external? 

I want y'all to live like cats. When you observe a cat, you will notice that you can hardly play with it, when it is not in the mood for play. In contrast, when it's in the mood for play, you can barely stop it from playing with itself. This is because, when it's in the mood, it will see every object in your room as a toy. Also, it will adjust the amount of challenge automatically, for example by attempting more and more difficult jumps, since when the play is not challenging, it's not fun.

My claim is that if you are a passion oriented person (ADHD, executive dysfunction) you are required to be the main supplier of your own challenges. 

If it makes you feel any better, you can also frame it like this: Non-passion-oriented-people have difficulties at figuring out what's worth learning by themselves, which is why universities exist, so they can go there and be spoon-fed knowledge curated by their professors who have done the same thing.

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

of all the people I know in real life who I consider ND (leaning autistic), they are all well-educated, well-functioning members of society.

This is correct. I'm sorry I have not been precise enough with my writing. Yes, non-passion-oriented gifted autistic people will have stellar careers in technological fields and non-passion-oriented gifted HSPs will have stellar careers in psychology and adjacent fields (this is still very simplified, of course).

My radical claim is: The reason why everybody reading this is at least to some extent a passion oriented person, is because if you weren't, you'd not be here to learn, but instead you'd just invest all of your energy into taking more courses at university so you have your phd faster or whatever. (or working longer hours to increase your wage, I think you get my point.)

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Take this as someone who has spent more than 10000 hours on one single videogame.

That sounds like an awful lot of repetition and predictability for someone claiming they're the opposite of autistic 👅.

My claim is that me and you, like most people here are somewhere on that autism-psychosis spectrum you sent in here, with some features of both. (psychosis=HSP in my mind, I know this is a radical claim that needs more evidence, but it is a useful frame for now)

I have not gotten to my main point about enabling yet, but I need to take a break😅

Edited 10 hours ago by Cred

[Joseph Maynor]

@Cred 

5 hours ago, Cred said:

Fuck yeah, we are now definitely getting to the juicy part of all of this, which is: "What does all of this mean for my actual life?"

It is important to note that answering this question and living according to the insights stemming from it, is a work in progress for me too. 

Before continuing, I want to point out that I don't want to talk any of you into believing that they should regret any past life choices. I sure as hell don't. ALL of your life experience is valuable, ESPECIALLY the bad decisions you've made. Also, I fundamentally reject the idea of regretting ANYthing.

There is truth to this, but you have a very dangerous flaw in your argumentation, which is this: Why do you assume, that challenges have to be external? 

I want y'all to live like cats. When you observe a cat, you will notice that you can hardly play with it, when it is not in the mood for play. In contrast, when it's in the mood for play, you can barely stop it from playing with itself. This is because, when it's in the mood, it will see every object in your room as a toy. Also, it will adjust the amount of challenge automatically, for example by attempting more and more difficult jumps, since when the play is not challenging, it's not fun.

I agree with this 100%.  Very well said.  This is part of Beauty.

[Cred]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Cred 

I agree with this 100%.  Very well said.  This is part of Beauty.

Thanks for the encouragement! This really helps.

I want to add some nuance to this metaphor. It still holds, that challenge does not have to be external, however people who own a cat will say: "Yeah, this is true, but my cat will still have more fun and benefit more, If I properly engage in the play with the right toys."

To transfer this insight into reality means: If you have a good coach/teacher/conversation partner, you will learn just as well or even more than alone. However, your partner needs to be adaptable. If they hold boring monologues, you will not be able to pay attention. And if this is the case, it's not your fault, it's their lack of adaptability.