John Anthony vs Owen Cook meeting clavicular - perfect illustration of frame

[Lyubov]

Sales, finance, real estate, law, hospitality, etc. These are more extroverted jobs and usually what more extroverted guys do.

Science, math, tech, almost every guy getting funneled into PUA does a job like this. 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, nerdspeak said:

A lot of academia is networking and the ability to influence important people at conferences.

Those people don't do actual science.

You have to be careful. There are many people who associate themselves with science but don't do one bit of it. Like Sam Harris. He does not do science.

The real scientists are nameless and faceless slaves deep in the coal mines. The faces you know are mostly bullshitters and talkers -- exactly the extrovert types who love to take credit for everything.

Edited 6 hours ago by Leo Gura

[nerdspeak]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Those people don't do actual science.

You have to be careful. There are many people who associate themselves with science but don't do one bit of it. Like Sam Harris. He does not do science.

The real scientists are nameless and faceless slaves deep in the coal mines. The faces you know are mostly bullshitters and talkers -- exactly the extrovert types who love to take credit for everything.

I would qualify this a bit. Harris isn’t a real scientist with a research position but I understand what you mean. There are established scientists who, at a certain point, realize they’ll get more publications per hour by persuading more junior or less socially-skilled researchers to list them as co-authors, without contributing much themselves beyond their reputation and network.

However, you need institutional leverage to do that. To get that leverage, at some point they had to do actual scientific work themselves to get there. It’s almost impossible to bullshit and network your way through an R1 PhD, multiple postdocs, hiring committees, peer review, and tenure review board. Of course it helps, but you would need to also do a lot of logical abstract work. I’m not saying it hasn’t been done (pure bullshit artists getting tenure at an R1 in contemporary academy, let’s say since 1990), but you need to be an extremely skilled politician on the level of Bill Clinton to get away with it. 

My point is, there are a significant number of people who are capable of both being charismatic/sociable AND hardcore scientific work.

Many of those people, however, later choose to specialize in being charismatic/sociable (but not at the level of Huberman—they keep it confined within academia) because it’s more efficient from perspective of H-net scores and generating a huge number of publications, or because it’s easier and more fun for them.

This is as much a problem of academia’s perverse incentives (optimize for publication volume and prestige rather than originality) as the corruption of the senior scientists as individuals. 

Some of these more senior researchers are cool though, and by lending their names as co-authors, innovative new stuff gets published that would never be accepted by major journals if it was just a couple post-docs listed as authors.

Edited 6 hours ago by nerdspeak

[Raze]

How is Huberman charismatic? He just summarizes research papers and science facts in an important sounding voice. 

He gets girls because he’s famous and tall.

Edited 6 hours ago by Raze

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The real scientists are nameless and faceless slaves deep in the coal mines. The faces you know are mostly bullshitters and talkers -- exactly the extrovert types who love to take credit for everything.

Talking and bullshitting are essential skills to making friends and developing relationships of all kinds. Without negatively framing extroversion as a whole, I’d argue that there are many introverts who envy the skill of bullshitting and talking in others.

I’d also argue the skill of bullshitting and talking doesn’t necessarily signal one’s core capacity or lack of capacity to be intelligent.

Note: I’m an ENFP, I’m a huge fan of your work and have many insights/Awakenings that I don’t find many here have had-of course this is my assumption, and can only go off what I read

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Terell Kirby

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

I’d argue that there are many introverts who envy the skill of bullshitting and talking in others.

It is enviable until one understands the costs. Then, no thank you.

[Lyubov]

I can’t say introverts or extroverts are worse off than each other. Introverts will have to put more effort in to getting their social needs met and when big life changes come and people move it can be harder to find people to socialize with. Extroverts make friends easily but this comes with a lot of drama. Extroverts have as many fallouts as they do friends. 

[Terell Kirby]

3 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

Extroverts make friends easily but this comes with a lot of drama. Extroverts have as many fallouts as they do friends. 

That’s not actually verifiable across the board. Of course you could say to hell with humanity and cut off all friendships, that would prevent any potential drama and fallout. But that’s not always healthy either.

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is enviable until one understands the costs. Then, no thank you.

Well that’s cool, but still is an introverts bias

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

but still is an introverts bias

Of course

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

Clavicular is like the rotten souless minion of a devil, he makes Owen and JAL look like they have principles and a soul. I sometimes see popular gay IG accounts mentioning his name, how far do you have to fall before that starts happening LOL

[Lucasxp64]

Is it worth abandoning introspecting/intellectual career or life purpose just to hyper-optimize for sociability, like going into sales instead?

Just for the sake of getting a 8/10 girlfriend?

I don't prioritize an absurdly high lay count, just high quality (I know I need to lower standards at first)... Just doing it as a phase, and once I'm satisfied I drop it.

However, it's a big concern I'd lose those skills due to high introspection/intellectual work due to career/life purpose... And if I lost that one girlfriend, I'd have been rusty due to not having a hyper-social career/life purpose.

I prioritize being in high touch to my intuition and emotions, but not on being social. I'm not social, but I do prioritize being in high emotional touch one-to-one to a specific girl, that brings me immense joy like nothing else. But I have very little social experience to strangers. I go to high emotional depth which also translates into high sexual acuity to what turns them on, and that seems a flaw in game? Do I need to be more caveman?

Edited 1 hour ago by Lucasxp64

[Terell Kirby]

11 minutes ago, Lucasxp64 said:

Is it worth abandoning introspecting/intellectual career or life purpose just to hyper-optimize for sociability, like going into sales instead?

Just for the sake of getting a 8/10 girlfriend?

Of course.

You Cant land an 8/10 girlfriend without first developing social skills, and social skills require you get out of the house to socialize.

So yes, there is a tradeoff in that one takes away time from the other, but also can be done across different periods of your life.

[nerdspeak]

@Lucasxp64 not worth it, if you make yourself into someone you’re not just to get a gf, you’ll resent the girlfriend you end up with because she’s blocking you from fulfilling your purpose. Eventually you’ll feel trapped and sabotage it. 

For a relationship to last, the girl needs to be aligned with who you are (your purpose) otherwise you’ll sabotage it in the end because she’s getting in your way, or become anxious and depressed because you’ll feel pressure to perform this false extrovert self to keep the relationship, while feeling anxious gnawing feeling about how you’re ignoring your real goals.

That doesn’t mean don’t learn basic social skills, but abandoning an intellectual career you’re suited for to become a salesman or club promoter because you think you’ll get a hotter gf is really a bad idea. From both a pure career perspective (you won’t be good at those extrovert jobs) and from a life satisfaction perspective. I could go on and on, trust me, don’t do it.  

Edited 1 hour ago by nerdspeak

[cle103]

7 hours ago, Zenterus said:

One day, out of curiosity, I asked him if he ever even had a deep insight from a psychedelic or other substance. He sat there for a few seconds and said, "Honestly dude.. no."

That reminds me of my old roommate who was my tripsitter for a while. After every trip I told him about my mind bending explorations and eventually he wanted to try it as well (he dabbled in meditation). I think he did 3 trips (good dosages as well) and the most he got out of it was some sort of symbol/logo he found cool. He's super extroverted as well. Able to network his way to all kinds of opportunities but he struggles with deep work. 

Real pros and cons for both sides.