Why nobody here talks about non-doership or lack of control

[Carl-Richard]

Because these are hard things to integrate and hard things to fake. It's hard to fake not being in control of your actions, of viewing yourself from a 3rd person perspective, of your body moving of its own accord. And it's hard to accept not being in control, of not making choices, of not having a life or a future you can decide or want. When there is actually no you and you've seen through identification and it's for real and not some fairytale you're telling yourself, there is no you that can want anything. There is nothing you can do, nothing that can ever be done. You can only be what is eternally present.

The words "God", "Love" and "Truth" are glamour words that belie the fact of the Dark Night of the Soul. That you must die for you to be reborn as who you truly are. And that thing has no personal agenda. It does not care about your personal wishes or wants. It is not these things. It is everything. If you have not ran up against the wall of the sheer reality of annihilation of the personal self, forever, for all of eternity. No you, no actions, nothing. Then you are not yet at what is truly True, what is truly Love, what is truly God. Because you are still in the way, projecting shadows on the wall of the cave.

To relentlessly go against the light, requires giving up the shadow existence, exiting the comfortable seclusion of the cave and becoming one with the Sun.

[Hojo]

Its super weird. One time I woke up and couldnt find myself in my field of view. I was looking for something but not sure what and then the realization that theres nothing to look for. 

Then what am I doing? Nothing.

When you truly give up and get what you want there will be no one there to receive it. So theres no point in wanting anything.

Edited yesterday at 04:25 AM by Hojo

[Mellowmarsh]

On knowing the knowledge that everyone is going to die is why we choose to live the lie that is individuality.
Where there’s no hope, there’s just chaos. So it is only the rare few who appear mentally equipped to endure the raw unfiltered truth. 

Human life is habitually structured around the conditioned play of pretence and performance.
Alternatively , the truth is too inconvenient, it’s terrifyingly difficult to live with, and is why most people reject it in favour of the delusion that they often mistake for being normal. 

 

 

[Oppositionless]

Because it's uncomfortable . Our entire judicial system is based on free will. All of morality assumes a doer. Society would have to change radically.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

18 minutes ago, Oppositionless said:

Because it's uncomfortable . Our entire judicial system is based on free will. All of morality assumes a doer. Society would have to change radically.

Bingo - I tried to bring up the free will argument at my sister's birthday shit. Boy oh boy.

Such a simple way to collapse wordviews and antagonise that bunch. Never again 🤪💀

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

Because it's uncomfortable . Our entire judicial system is based on free will. All of morality assumes a doer. Society would have to change radically.

This is not about philosophical free will. This is about existential/phenomenological (lack of) free will. That this conflation is happening is also indicative of the problem. I'm talking about that you are literally experiencing yourself moving on autopilot, as if somebody is controlling you with a remote controller. This is what non-dual embodiment implicates. If there is no difference between you and the chair next to you, there is no difference between you choosing to move towards the chair and the chair choosing to move towards you. Your agency is intertwined with the whole universe. The universe moving is you moving out of your will. Your will is the entire universe moving.

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Bingo - I tried to bring up the free will argument at my sister's birthday shit. Boy oh boy.

Such a simple way to collapse wordviews and antagonise that bunch. Never again 🤪💀

Catfight

[Elliott]

23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

Quote

Because these are hard things to integrate and hard things to fake....

 

 

23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 And it's hard to accept not being in control, of not making choices,

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

There is nothing you can do, nothing that can ever be done. 

 

 

 

You've been watching Spira....

Edited 5 hours ago by Elliott

[Natasha Tori Maru]

My electrons made me do it

[zurew]

I would just flag that dissociation from your ego can be bad if it is simulated . You can achieve a sense of "dissociation"  by the help of your ego creating the simulation of non-doership.

Probably one good heruistic to use is your sense of connectedness with the world. If you have a sense of dissociation from your ego and you don't have highly elevated connectedness with the whole world, then its probably simulated by your ego.

 

It would be the difference between having a sense of being stuck in a foreign body that moves on its own and you are located in nowhere, disconnected from everything  vs having a strong sense of being one with the Universe

Edited 9 hours ago by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

You've been watching Spira....

Hey, it's the quotes guy responding to a post I made.

Did I watch a Spira video the last day, week or month and then I had the idea to write this topic? No (not that I can recall). Have I watched a lot of Spira throughout the years? Yes. I used to listen to Spira (and Alan Watts and other teachers) while falling asleep every night for many weeks.

 

15 minutes ago, zurew said:

I would just flag that dissociation from your ego can be bad if it is simulated . You can achieve a sense of "dissociation"  by the help of your ego creating the simulation of non-doership.

Probably one good heruistic to use is your sense of connectedness with the world. If you have a sense of dissociation from your ego and you don't have highly elevated connectedness with the whole world, then its probably simulated by your ego.

If you literally feel like you didn't just move your hand and as if somebody else was steering your hand in the direction they wanted, that's without a doubt non-doership.

[Carl-Richard]

Notice how Leo has not made a video on the Dark Night of the Soul. Notice how nobody on the forum talks about it. Notice he made a video on conformity. Notice how everybody talks about it. Confirmity comfortmity.

Edited 8 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[zurew]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you literally feel like you didn't just move your hand and as if somebody else was steering your hand in the direction they wanted, that's without a doubt non-doership.

So do you think your sense of connectedness is irrelevant?

Beucause to me non-doership means more than being stuck in a foreign body.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, zurew said:

So do you think your sense of connectedness is irrelevant?

For me I find it very relevant. You summarised it well in post above.

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

So do you think your sense of connectedness is irrelevant?

No.

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

No.

Then we probably roughly share the same notion.

[Kalki Avatar]

@Carl-Richard Finally someone brings this real topic! 
I would like to know if you are living such current reality of no control at all? In the past I was going far through such path but I had to stop because I thought I was doing something wrong. It just feels crazy and completely alien to society. You basically can’t fit in anywhere by chance. could you please expand more on this because the line is really thin between such liberation and total insanity in the bad sense. How would you even survive? Keep a job? Etc? How do one understand such path if that’s even something. I had to stop because I was about to leave my job, university and while even living with my parents the stress was real since they thought I was crazy and did not understand. Sadhguru has scratched this topic saying that you need control so you don’t go mad. I think he fears fully letting go and created and ego again through magic or tantric means just to perform since I once perceived hidden anxiety in him by holding hidden veils just as I had to do so I could perform into society expectations for the sake of survival. Did you experienced dissasociation and depersonalization? Some say this is a problem and others don’t and that it’s part of the path. I experienced in the past and it was liberating yet crazy and had to force a stop through karma gluing. 
 

This path is serious since it triggers the real matter of the dark night of the soul which is an extensive theme that go through different stages as you evolve and expand your consciousness. You will continue having different dark nights until fully avatar. The dark night manifest through different forms and dimensions not just feeling lost. It can manifest even through chakra problems of energy leaking and past life karma surging up that you are not even aware of and don’t know how to handle. Or past life karma congestion when surging up that later manifests as disease.

Edited 7 hours ago by Kalki Avatar

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Kalki Avatar Do you feel a loss of agency?

I ask because the brain as, a survival mechanism, moves toward certainty. Sometimes even at the cost of happiness or wholesome action. We can experience this grasp for certainty as a measure to alleviate anxiety IE the OCD sufferer who attempts to alleviate a compulsive thought, and being certain a set of actions were performed in sequence or in repetition.

The loss of control and ability to be certain creates some of the destabilizing feelings you speak of. How the fuck can we survive if we have no free will to assert upon reality to obtain an outcome? It is the attachment to outcome, aversion/desire, that can also contribute to the source of the darkness.

Edited 8 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Kalki Avatar]

@Natasha Tori Maru I do feel a sense of agency now because I had to stop the path. It’s too radical. I would need to at least live for some time in nature alone, a temple or with someone that understand and support my path until I can integrate such deep insight into material/social life in a practical way. Thats why there are degrees of enlightenment. That which you described of no more attachment to outcome is the ultimate level of avatar, which Krishna teached. At such point of perfection then there will not be any type of feelings/thoughts. It can still be managed and processed but for it to vanish fully it has to be on the ultimate level.
 

The thing is that it goes very deep. The attachment to outcome and control can be deeeeply unconscious to degrees that not even enlightened you are still aware (again different degrees of enlightenment- advanced,saint, sage, master, avatari). This is why Hindus pray to Devas and divine feminine (mother) for their help, blessing and mercy on their path and overall life in order to succeed into unity-perfection (total lack of control-acceptance/love/embodiment). 
 

When I say depersonalized and detached from the mind it goes to the extent of not being able to function properly because the mind is literally detached from being stable to unstable (psychedelic and fluid). In a radical and spiritual sense it’s good and liberating. It gets you closer to enlightenment but it create other problems at its cost. Since the mind is unstable you can’t function properly in normal situations, there is no interpretation of the matrix conditioning. You are in different dimension to the normal survival day to day conditioned experience. If I were in a space ship with aliens and robots with AI working for me then it wouldn’t be a problem at all.

Edited 7 hours ago by Kalki Avatar

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Kalki Avatar said:

I would like to know if you are living such current reality of no control at all?

On and off lately. Used to be more before, was a challenge.

 

3 hours ago, Kalki Avatar said:

In the past I was going far through such path but I had to stop because I thought I was doing something wrong. It just feels crazy and completely alien to society.

Yes, same.

How you would go from living a life in 3D to living in a perfect flow where there is no self, no time, no actions being made, but you're still experiencing life, is the biggest mindfuck. It's like entering the singularity of a black hole.

 

3 hours ago, Kalki Avatar said:

You basically can’t fit in anywhere by chance. could you please expand more on this because the line is really thin between such liberation and total insanity in the bad sense. How would you even survive? Keep a job? Etc? How do one understand such path if that’s even something. I had to stop because I was about to leave my job, university and while even living with my parents the stress was real since they thought I was crazy and did not understand.

The way I see it is you just have to somewhat paradoxically really not care about those things, about anything at all, and let go of everything. You have to want to know yourself more than anything, love yourself more than anything, trust yourself more than anything. If you decide to leave your job, so what? If you decide to leave the country or your family or your loved ones, so what? What if you die as a result? So what? You are still you.

But if you do go all in for love, all in for knowledge, all in for you, odds are you will do more amazing things than you can ever imagine. And the very reason that you have to let go of those things, to not really care about them, is because you love them so much, because the level of love you have for them cannot coexist with your attachment to them. For you to love them absolutely, you have to let go of them.

Worrying that you will not be good after letting go is a Catch-22 of the ego self, it keeps you stuck in a state of lesser love through fear.

But not everybody feels ready for the level of love that disintegrates all sense of separation. And you should be honest about that and ask yourself what you really want at this moment in life.

Edited 5 hours ago by Carl-Richard