DocWatts

Can We Just Call Them Our Equivalent Of The Nazis Already?

51 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, aurum said:

Several things can be true:

1) Most of society is still in a very low state of development

2) Progressives can do stupid things that cause unnecessary blowback / resistance

3) Society would be at a lower state of development without progressives, not higher

4) Progressives need to acknowledge when they cause blowback without gaslighting themselves that they are always the problem

And this is how you do nuanced observation on the limits and potential drawbacks of progressivism (I agree with all of these points, btw).

This is something which shouldn't be that hard on what's supposed to be a Conscious Politics Forum, but I've come to accept that the 'Conscious' part is more of an aspiration than a description, judging by some of the posts I see here.

Edited by DocWatts

I have a Substack, where I write about epistemology, metarationality, and the Meaning Crisis. 

Check it out at : https://7provtruths.substack.com/

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1 minute ago, DocWatts said:

And this is how you do nuanced observation on the limits and potential drawbacks of progressivism (I agree with all of these points, btw).

This is something which shouldn't be that hard on what's supposed to be a Conscious Politics Forum, but I've come to accept that the 'Conscious' part is more of an aspiration than a description for many of the posts I see on here.

Nice passive aggressive remark. Still avoiding responding with substance, I see.

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12 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Nice passive aggressive remark. Still avoiding responding with substance, I see.

Is your big complaint DEI? What else, what's your biggest reverse racism complaints? I think it's not only okay, but GOOD to question DEI.

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47 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Is your big complaint DEI? What else, what's your biggest reverse racism complaints? I think it's not only okay, but GOOD to question DEI.

My biggest complaint is that we are torturing hundreds of millions of individuals every year and the vast majority of progressives would rather virtue signal about left-over racism or identity politics than do anything measurable about this unacceptable state of affairs.

What is going on right now is the equivalent of people focusing on feminist issues while millions of jews are holocausted, with nobody batting an eye at that. Sure, all of these things are important, but we can't obsessively only talk about them for years and years on and in the most inflammatory way imaginable and just continue to get deadlocked in the same culture war indefinitely.

 

It's the fact that most progressies have no capacity to see humanity in those they frame as bigots while they themselves allow no room for progressive thought that extends the circle of compassion or threatens the validity of their socially sanctioned pet projects. I already explained to you that I consider myself a radical progressive. My issue with progressive never was that they are too progressive, but that they are not progressive enough.

 

I have a problem with a dominant subgroup of progressives who they are toxic, childish, mentally ill, ideologicall captured, ineffective and absurdly hypocritical while feeling self-righteous about all of it. They are actively making progress harder to achieve for practically minded individuals.

Most importantly they have distorted the foundations of what progressivism is and turned it into an ideological recruitment machine for outrage against bigotry (and only the kind of bigotry that is socially sanctioned to hate on).

Progress should be about expanding people's identities, not contract them by threatening and attacking it constantly. As soon as you label someone a bigot and attack them, their identity not only gets locked it, but grows and feels it needs to defend itself.

You don't get rid of Christianity by attacking Christianity, by mocking it, by victimizing, but simply by giving better alternatives.

 

And this is precisely what progressies have failed at. They have given us certain freedoms, they have deconstructed traditional notions, and they have never truly bothered to give us something that replaced, improves upon what we have abandoned. This is why people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate exist. People are lost, you calling them bigots and hating on them will not going to help them get out of that situation. 

The reason why people stopped being Christian is because it wasn't cool to be Christian. Christianity wasnt offering people anything, it was restricting people. Today, the tragedy is that the opposite is the case. Progressive culture is so absurdly toxic and unhealthy that for the average joe, living a traditional Christian life likely yields better results for their personal lifes. 

Look at how many young people are attracted by stage blue today. People need to transition through these stages, and if you don't offer them a healthy way to do so, they will go back to religion and whatever toxic sludge that comes with that.

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18 minutes ago, Scholar said:

My biggest complaint is that we are torturing hundreds of millions of individuals every year and the vast majority of progressives would rather virtue signal about left-over racism or identity politics than do anything measurable about this unacceptable state of affairs.

What is going on right now is the equivalent of people focusing on feminist issues while millions of jews are holocausted, with nobody batting an eye at that. Sure, all of these things are important, but we can't obsessively only talk about them for years and years on and in the most inflammatory way imaginable and just continue to get deadlocked in the same culture war indefinitely.

 

It's the fact that most progressies have no capacity to see humanity in those they frame as bigots while they themselves allow no room for progressive thought that extends the circle of compassion or threatens the validity of their socially sanctioned pet projects. I already explained to you that I consider myself a radical progressive. My issue with progressive never was that they are too progressive, but that they are not progressive enough.

 

I have a problem with a dominant subgroup of progressives who they are toxic, childish, mentally ill, ideologicall captured, ineffective and absurdly hypocritical while feeling self-righteous about all of it. They are actively making progress harder to achieve for practically minded individuals.

Most importantly they have distorted the foundations of what progressivism is and turned it into an ideological recruitment machine for outrage against bigotry (and only the kind of bigotry that is socially sanctioned to hate on).

Progress should be about expanding people's identities, not contract them by threatening and attacking it constantly. As soon as you label someone a bigot and attack them, their identity not only gets locked it, but grows and feels it needs to defend itself.

You don't get rid of Christianity by attacking Christianity, by mocking it, by victimizing, but simply by giving better alternatives.

 

And this is precisely what progressies have failed at. They have given us certain freedoms, they have deconstructed traditional notions, and they have never truly bothered to give us something that replaced, improves upon what we have abandoned. This is why people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate exist. People are lost, you calling them bigots and hating on them will not going to help them get out of that situation. 

The reason why people stopped being Christian is because it wasn't cool to be Christian. Christianity wasnt offering people anything, it was restricting people. Today, the tragedy is that the opposite is the case. Progressive culture is so absurdly toxic and unhealthy that for the average joe, living a traditional Christian life likely yields better results for their personal lifes. 

Look at how many young people are attracted by stage blue today. People need to transition through these stages, and if you don't offer them a healthy way to do so, they will go back to religion and whatever toxic sludge that comes with that.

What specific issues though,  DEI? You think we should focus more on Palestine, that's what you're referring to? You're being super vague and inflammatory.

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14 hours ago, Scholar said:

I truly despise progressives, because I consider myself an actual progressive. I believe there are issues of such importance that every day we keep focusing on nonsense issues like trans rights or racism we basically are causing the equivalent of the holocaust. To me, people actually are akin to nazis. In fact the average joe to me is more akin to a interdimensional child-eating pedophile nazi, yet I can compose myself, be the adult in the room and realize that this won't change by me screeching at everyone by calling them human supremacist and pressuring them all to care about animal rihts. It just doesn't work.

"I consider myself an animals right advocate, but we keep focusing on nonsense issues like factory farming." ----> This is you.

I'm open to having a good faith discussion about the limitations of progressivism, but I can't take you seriously when you simultaneously claim that racism isn't a serious problem - especially in a context where here in the States we're fighting for our lives against a racist, authoritarian government.

Learn to read the room, my man.

Edited by DocWatts

I have a Substack, where I write about epistemology, metarationality, and the Meaning Crisis. 

Check it out at : https://7provtruths.substack.com/

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21 hours ago, aurum said:

This is false, because all those "more urgent issues" are born out of the same low levels of development.

Racism is partially how you get things like ethnic cleansing. Is ethinic cleansing not an urgent enough issue?

Whatever backlash there has been to progressivism is peanuts compared to how racist and hateful people already were. Now it's just being exposed.

100%


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18 hours ago, Scholar said:

Ethnic cleansing isn't happening in the western world. And no, racism has been mostly overcome.

When I was a teenager, I used to believe the same thing. So, I was very much entrenched in my little Stage Orange perspective... totally oblivious to the way the world really operates.

And I would have all sorts of ways of rationalizing away the sexism that I'd experience... because I didn't want my little bubble to pop.

I was socially conditioned to believe that bigotry and discrimination on the basis of race and gender was a thing of the past that Martin Luther King solved in the 1960s.... such that I thought (in the 90s) that we already lived in a world that had transcended these issues. 

And that was a SUPER common thought process that many white kids got taught in that era.

But then, I actually experienced the world. And the reality is, is that about 20% of people are overtly racist and sexist. Then, 70% of people are unconsciously racist and sexist but consciously disagree with racism and sexism and don't even want to look at their own racism and sexism, and 10% of people are actually well educated on these matters and trying to move society to become conscious of these under-currents in society and to fix these issues.

And going into denial about the white supremacist and patriarchal ways of the Western world just means that you're not seeing the reality. And when you don't see the reality, you propose solutions that don't work... and you act as a divisive force that enables the powers that be to divide and conquer.

I've come across several posts on this forum that are like, "Progressives need to stop focusing on trans issues. It just pushes people away from the movement."

But the reality is that, we can only be successful if we have a unified group working towards wide-spread class consciousness. But you can't go, "Hey, join our movement. But you trans people, gay people, women, and minorities need to stop complaining about being treated unfairly. That's a thing of the past anyway... says me someone who never qualified for that treatment in my life."

You can see how that's not tenable because you only want to focus on the progressive issues that impact you... but not the ones that impact others. You consider the ones that impact others as trivial and unimportant.

So, you become an agent of the powers that be's divide and conquer tactic.


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20 hours ago, Emerald said:

I've come across several posts on this forum that are like, "Progressives need to stop focusing on trans issues. It just pushes people away from the movement."

But the reality is that, we can only be successful if we have a unified group working towards wide-spread class consciousness. But you can't go, "Hey, join our movement. But you trans people, gay people, women, and minorities need to stop complaining about being treated unfairly. That's a thing of the past anyway... says me someone who never qualified for that treatment in my life."

After reading a lot of posts from “moderates” explaining why they voted for Trump this time, I’ve been pretty amazed by how many specifically mention trans women competing in women’s sports as one of their main reasons. If the Democratic Party had gone out publicly and clearly said they don’t support this, it probably would have drastically improved the chances of the US not falling into the claws of fascists. Do you think it was worth it, not doing so?

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10 minutes ago, Kid A said:

After reading a lot of posts from “moderates” explaining why they voted for Trump this time, I’ve been pretty amazed by how many specifically mention trans women competing in women’s sports as one of their main reasons. If the Democratic Party had gone out publicly and clearly said they don’t support this, it probably would have drastically improved the chances of the US not falling into the claws of fascists. Do you think it was worth it, not doing so?

The fascists would have taken hold anyway. If not in 2024 than in 2028. 

The few years of half baked acceptance we got was still incredibly valuable. 

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