Conservative activist, Charlie Kirk, has been shot and killed at University

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Recursoinominado said:

It seems that the FBI is going to do all they can to hide if he is actually right-wing. 

All of this could be solved with one good interview of the shooter, but we are speculating as he was dead, if he is really a left-wing, the FBI would be active in showing the world that. 

FBI certainly can't be trusted on this issue.

But I trust that within weeks any real evidence will leak to the press. If the shooter was a Groyper this cannot stay hidden. His family and friends will be interviewed by reporters.

Edited Sunday at 10:49 PM by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

On 9/13/2025 at 0:24 PM, Apparition of Jack said:

I’m not a doomer. I think the world can heal. But not if it’s not being honest about where it’s currently at. 
 

Neo-Nazism has gone unchallenged for too long and we’re all witnessing its corrosive effects. It’s time we end it once and for all and build a truly democratic world.

100%

Since 2015, too many people have been like "Yeah, they might quack and waddle and have bills... but it's not like they're ducks."

So, it's honestly super important that we call things what they are without using all kinds of complicated language to muddy the waters.

If it's a duck... just call it a duck.

It's never offensive, wrong, or harmful to call something what it is.

And it's clear and has been clear for a long time that these far right people in power are Fascists... and those that support them are Fascist supporters whether they admit it to themselves or not. 

And the only thing that slows these Fascist politicians from throwing all their scapegoated groups (the left, trans people, gay people, immigrants, Muslims, Jews, minorities, mouthy women, etc.) in concentration camps and creating a Fascist dictatorship is the pushback they're getting. And they're only getting that pushback because a sizable minority of people are clear-eyed enough to call a Fascist a Fascist.

I remember having an argument with Leo last year when I made a statement like, "Trump probably would put people in concentration camps to throw red meat to his base, but probably doesn't care either way about them. But Ron DeSantis would put people in concentration camps just because he wants to see people in concentration camps." 

And he was rolling his eyes at me for even suggesting Ron Desantis would put people in concentration camps. And now look at where we are... with Alligator Alcatraz.

There is no bottom for these far right people in power... and for about 25% of regular people, they will be loyal to the Fascist cause no matter what.

And the only thing preventing them all from being loud and proud Fascists, is that people haven't 100% normalized it yet. But it's on its way.

That's why it's more important than ever to simply call a thing what it is. It's not offensive, wrong, or hateful to call a Fascist a Fascist. It's the same as calling a duck a duck.

Honestly, it was evident back in 2015 that they were Fascists.

A hurricane starts the same way every single time, which is why meteorologists can predict them before they even become a hurricane. And Fascism (though the name is new) is as old as humanity itself... and it has predictable patterns.

It's only the unsinkable ship fallacy and American exceptionalism that has made so many people so blind to the rise in Fascism. And some people are still doubting that a hurricane is a hurricane, when we've been in the hurricane for 10 years.

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

That is why grifters like Joe Rogan and Bill Maher turn to the right. 

This is false. Don’t spread fake news around. I had to look this up myself. Bill Maher did not turn to the right at all.

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's not offensive, wrong, or hateful to call a Fascist a Fascist. It's the same as calling a duck a duck.

The issue is that this is a relative matter of perspective. Fascist is a constructed category, much moreso than a duck. It's not so clear who is and isn't a fascist because the political spectrum is very wide with no natural demarcations.

Is Charlie Kirk a fascist? There is no objective answer to that question because it depends on how you wanna look at it and how strict or loose you're willing to be.

We have to be careful not to act like something like "fascist" is a clear, objective, given category. We create these categories to suit our survival, which then leads to distorted views of reality.

People do over-use such labels and it does lead to a demonization effect on the left. I see many far leftists view anyone right of Joe Biden as a fascist, leaving no room for legitmate conservative perspectives. Then anything conservative ends up being misunderstood by over-lumping it with the far right.

Kirk has aborent views, but his views were not outside the norm of American conservtives. Which is proven by his feud with the Groypers. The Groypers are genuine full-on fascists. But the Groypers are pretty fringe even among Trump supporters. Oddly enough the Groypers make Kirk look moderate.

Being as accurate as we can be is desirable, so we don't fall into the trap of over-generalizing our opponents, which is a mistake our opponents make on purpose.

Edited Sunday at 10:53 PM by Leo Gura

[Scholar]

32 minutes ago, Emerald said:

100%

Since 2015, too many people have been like "Yeah, they might quack and waddle and have bills... but it's not like they're ducks."

So, it's honestly super important that we call things what they are without using all kinds of complicated language to muddy the waters.

If it's a duck... just call it a duck.

It's never offensive, wrong, or harmful to call something what it is.

And it's clear and has been clear for a long time that these far right people in power are Fascists... and those that support them are Fascist supporters whether they admit it to themselves or not. 

And the only thing that slows these Fascist politicians from throwing all their scapegoated groups (the left, trans people, gay people, immigrants, Muslims, Jews, minorities, mouthy women, etc.) in concentration camps and creating a Fascist dictatorship is the pushback they're getting. And they're only getting that pushback because a sizable minority of people are clear-eyed enough to call a Fascist a Fascist.

I remember having an argument with Leo last year when I made a statement like, "Trump probably would put people in concentration camps to throw red meat to his base, but probably doesn't care either way about them. But Ron DeSantis would put people in concentration camps just because he wants to see people in concentration camps." 

And he was rolling his eyes at me for even suggesting Ron Desantis would put people in concentration camps. And now look at where we are... with Alligator Alcatraz.

There is no bottom for these far right people in power... and for about 25% of regular people, they will be loyal to the Fascist cause no matter what.

And the only thing preventing them all from being loud and proud Fascists, is that people haven't 100% normalized it yet. But it's on its way.

That's why it's more important than ever to simply call a thing what it is. It's not offensive, wrong, or hateful to call a Fascist a Fascist. It's the same as calling a duck a duck.

Honestly, it was evident back in 2015 that they were Fascists.

A hurricane starts the same way every single time, which is why meteorologists can predict them before they even become a hurricane. And Fascism (though the name is new) is as old as humanity itself... and it has predictable patterns.

It's only the unsinkable ship fallacy and American exceptionalism that has made so many people so blind to the rise in Fascism. And some people are still doubting that a hurricane is a hurricane, when we've been in the hurricane for 10 years.

The issue is that people have not learned from the lessons of World War 2. I think the fascist/nazi label as it is employed by americans reveals that they have no understanding of what fascism is or how it emerged.

It has been assumed that fascists are these abnormal individuals who radical ideologies who will infect the public with their ideology and radicalize them. It's "them", the "fascists", they are "out there". This externalized view of what fascism is makes it impossible to actually prevent fascism.

 

The key lesson that we were supposed to learn from the holocaust is that, it's not "fascists" who are going to bring the hatred that will be the prerequisite of new authoritarian systems. This label fundamentally veils what fascists are: Normal human beings.

 

This was the lesson, that perfectly normal human beings, perfectly upstanding and otherwise moral individuals, could end up supporting a system that would genocide entire subgroups of humans. By externalizing and conceptualizing this threat to "the rise of fascists", fascism was in fact enabled, impossible to prevent.

Why? Because to prevent fascism, you must prevent aspects that exists in all of us from taking hold. It's not about ideology, it's not about "fascists", it's about the average person.

 

When you say "They are fascists", what you in essence have done is give fascism an invisibility cloak. Nobody considers themselves a fascist, and therefore whatever aspect that will give rise to fascism, they will simply reject as being what will allow fascism to take hold. Because they are not fascists, they are just normal humans. When you label the problem "fascism", you make it seem like it requires something special to enable fascism. It requires an ideology, specific political or moral attitudes. 

 

In germany, children have always been taught that it was normal human beings, just like them, who caused the holocaust. It wasn't "THE FASCISTS", or "THE IDEOLOGY", it was just normal human beings, with normal human tendencies, who inevitably treaded down the road of darkness.

Why is this so essential to understand? Because it makes clear that what enables "fascism" is something that exists within everyone on of us, always. The nazis were not special, they were not evil, they were good people convinced they were doing the right thing.

 

The mental model of fascism as an infectious ideological disease does the precise opposite of preventing it. By framing fascists as evil, no good person will ever consider themselves a fascist. And everyone considers themselves to be good. This is precisely what ENABLES fascism to take hold. Good people who believe that only bad people can lead us down a path of fascism. That fascism is a sickness of the mind, not a part of the average human condition.

The model as it is employed right now fuels fascism, it amplifies it. Because you are doing precisely what is required for fascism to be enabled: Making the average person blind to which of their perfectly normal human tendencies will cause the rise of the next path towards darkness. You actively make people blind, making them believe that fascism is external, an exceptional state of human depravity.

 

But it's not, "fascism" is the norm, not the exception. If you doubt that, you merely have to look at what human beings do to animals.

Edited Sunday at 11:00 PM by Scholar

[Emerald]

On 9/13/2025 at 1:40 PM, Inliytened1 said:

You can call him a lot of things. Narcisist. Self centered.  Power hungry.  Vain. Materialistic.  Wealth centered.  But a fascist- no. He's not that.  Not to be compared with monsters like Hitler.  He is not that.   And don't give me a bunch of Jan 6th type crap. There is no evidence he orchestrated that directly.  Did he play a role in instilling that? Yes.  But he was not directly responsible for the same reason @Joshe brought up. 

The left is no better and as I said look no further than this thread for that evidence. 

Fascism isn't a dirty word. It's a descriptive word. And we shouldn't consider it some kind of taboo "dirty word" that no one should say except for in extreme historical examples like Hitler.

If someone holds Fascist ideologies and acts like a Fascist, there should be zero qualms in calling them a Fascist in a purely descriptive way. In fact, most of these people are counting on people never calling them Fascist directly, as they want to hide their Fascism under more neutral-sounding descriptors that won't scare off normies from their cause.

What must be understood is that Fascism isn't the hallmark of some uncommon monster. It's not a rarity AT ALL. In fact, it's SUPER common!

It's the banal evil of everyday people who get pulled in by a demagogue who says the correct"activation phrases" that unlocks the tendencies to hate, dehumanize, and attack the chosen scapegoats of the demagogue.

And Trump has done plenty of that. He's even creating concentration camps now... and has ICE acting as his Gestapo to steal suspected immigrants off the streets. And this is done to the applause of 25% of the country, while another 30% tries to whitewash over these facts and deny the obvious Fascist authoritarianism at play.

And for every rare Hitler Fascist, there are 10,000 little old lady Fascists just calling the secret police on their neighbors. So, most Fascists are just your next door neighbor. That's what's terrifying about Fascism. it's your mom... your dad... your siblings and cousins... your friends... etc.

It's like there terror of a zombie movie where everyone starts getting bitten... and starts behaving like a zombie themselves.

So, calling Trump a Fascist is accurate because he helps the cause of the Fascist weaponization of the people... regardless of not having an ideology himself beyond personal aggrandizement. But there are plenty in his administration that are obvious ideological Fascists.

The issue is that people think that Fascism is some rare thing that only monsters support. But in actuality, it's just peasant-mindedness, collective transference, and scapegoating weaponized by an orator who seeks to use this peasant-minded divisiveness to gain more authoritarian power.

So, we should all call Fascists what they are. Otherwise, we normalize and allow them to hide under the cover of other more neutral or unfamiliar conservative labels... and we behave like frogs in slowly boiling water.

[Joshe]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Is Charlie Kirk a fascist? There is no objective answer to that question because it depends on how you wanna look at it and how strict or loose you're willing to be.

We have to be careful not to act like something like "fascist" is a clear, objective, given category. We create these categories to suit our survival, which then leads to distorted views of reality.

Well said. Also, it's not a very accessible term. If you want to tell someone "hey, that's fascist", the vast majority of people won't have a clue wtf you're even talking about, and explaining it to them makes you look unhinged and out of touch with normal people. 

Probably best to just say "they're doing X". 

[Scholar]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Fascism isn't a dirty word. It's a descriptive word. And we shouldn't consider it some kind of taboo "dirty word" that no one should say except for in extreme historical examples like Hitler.

If someone holds Fascist ideologies and acts like a Fascist, there should be zero qualms in calling them a Fascist in a purely descriptive way. In fact, most of these people are counting on people never calling them Fascist directly, as they want to hide their Fascism under more neutral-sounding descriptors that won't scare off normies from their cause.

What must be understood is that Fascism isn't the hallmark of some uncommon monster. It's not a rarity AT ALL. In fact, it's SUPER common!

It's the banal evil of everyday people who get pulled in by a demagogue who says the correct"activation phrases" that unlocks the tendencies to hate, dehumanize, and attack the chosen scapegoats of the demagogue.

And Trump has done plenty of that. He's even creating concentration camps now... and has ICE acting as his Gestapo to steal suspected immigrants off the streets. And this is done to the applause of 25% of the country, while another 30% tries to whitewash over these facts and deny the obvious Fascist authoritarianism at play.

And for every rare Hitler Fascist, there are 10,000 little old lady Fascists just calling the secret police on their neighbors. So, most Fascists are just your next door neighbor. That's what's terrifying about Fascism. it's your mom... your dad... your siblings and cousins... your friends... etc.

It's like there terror of a zombie movie where everyone starts getting bitten... and starts behaving like a zombie themselves.

So, calling Trump a Fascist is accurate because he helps the cause of the Fascist weaponization of the people... regardless of not having an ideology himself beyond personal aggrandizement. But there are plenty in his administration that are obvious ideological Fascists.

The issue is that people think that Fascism is some rare thing that only monsters support. But in actuality, it's just peasant-mindedness, collective transference, and scapegoating weaponized by an orator who seeks to use this peasant-minded divisiveness to gain more authoritarian power.

So, we should all call Fascists what they are. Otherwise, we normalize and allow them to hide under the cover of other more neutral or unfamiliar conservative labels... and we behave like frogs in slowly boiling water.

I wish you could know how misguided this is.

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The issue is that this is a relative matter of perspective. Fascist is a constructed category, much moreso than a duck. It's not so clear who is and isn't a fascist because the political spectrum is very wide with no natural demarcations.

Is Charlie Kirk a fascist? There is no objective answer to that question because it depends on how you wanna look at it and how strict or loose you're willing to be.

We have to be careful not to act like something like "fascist" is a clear, objective, given category. We create these categories to suit our survival, which then leads to distorted views of reality.

People do over-use such labels and it does lead to a demonization effect on the left. I see many far leftists view anyone right of Joe Biden as a fascist, leaving no room for legitmate conservative perspectives. Then anything conservative ends up being misunderstood by over-lumping it with the far right.

Kirk has aborent views, but his views were not outside the norm of American conservtives. Which is proven by his feud with the Groypers. The Groypers are genuine full-on fascists. But the Groypers are pretty fringe even among Trump supporters. Oddly enough the Groypers make Kirk look moderate.

Being as accurate as we can be is desirable, so we don't fall into the trap of over-generalizing our opponents, which is a mistake our opponents make on purpose.

All of that just muddies the waters relative to the task at hand... which is to collectively push back on authoritarian Fascism.

And authoritarian Fascism is moving its goals forward as a collective coalition movement that works in lock-step. And even those who ideologically diverge are still working towards the same exact Fascist authoritarian end goals. Charlie Kirk was part of this machine. So, is Nick Fuentes. 

So, let's not split hairs about degrees of Fascist ideology. It's not about an individuals specific ideology. It's about what their effective politics are in terms of the movement they're bringing to fruition... which is clearly a Fascist movement. And anyone who supports a Fascist movement is effectively a Fascist.

But what must be understood about Groypers going after Charlie Kirk is that that's very specifically coming from the rightwing in-group that Nick Fuentes personally manufactured in order to carve out a niche for himself in the right wing sphere.

He positions himself as a Neo-Nazi who sees almost all other right wing figures (including Trump) as not being far right enough. So, he's ALWAYS criticizing almost everyone on the right for being "not right wing enough." And he claims that Republicans are worse than Democrats.

So, his whole entire schtick is about setting himself aside from other Right Wingers... so that he creates a cult following of Groypers.

But functionally, Charlie Kirk and Nick Fuentes agree about just about every issue except for Israel... Charlie Kirk being pro-Israel and Nick Fuentes being anti-israel (because he hates Jews). And they both work/worked towards the same Fascist end goals.

So, they are/were both far right Fascists. Nick Fuentes is just extra inflammatory because of the lane he's carving out for himself... and happened to sick his Groypers on Charlie Kirk. And it seems that one of them finally took action on the inter-Right Wing hate that Fuentes builds his brand off of.

[Joshe]

20 minutes ago, Emerald said:

while another 30% tries to whitewash over these facts and deny the obvious Fascist authoritarianism at play.

I think these "passive enablers" are the ones who actually widen the Overton window the most. 

Edited Sunday at 11:16 PM by Joshe

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I wish you could know how misguided this is.

What's misguided is to muddy the waters.

Call a thing what it is. it's very basic.

It's like if we called forest fires a "very hot burning of wood", then a bunch of people stay asleep in their homes because "No worries. It's not a forest fire. It's just a very hot burning of wood. Forest fires can't happen here."

[Scholar]

Just now, Emerald said:

What's misguided is to muddy the waters.

Call a thing what it is. it's very basic.

It's like if we called forest fires a "very hot burning of wood", then a bunch of people stay asleep in their homes because "No worries. It's not a forest fire. It's just a very hot burning of wood. Forest fires can't happen here."

You are muddying the waters, as I described above.

You keep making it about fascism, when it is about humanity.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I think these "Passive enablers" are the ones who actually widen the overton window the most. 

It definitely is. None of this would take hold if regular people weren't waffling about it and creating ambiguity and nuance where there functionally is none.

it's not the authoritarians themselves. It's all the enablers.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, let's not split hairs about degrees of Fascist ideology.

This is question-begging.

It is degrees of right-wing ideology.

You wouldn't want someone calling you a communist by being all sloppy and not wanting to split hairs.

That's exactly how MAGA thinks: it's too dangerous to split hairs now, so all leftists are communists.

I understand that nuance is not good in a  battle. But battle is what we are trying to avoid.

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

This is question-begging.

It is degrees of right-wing ideology.

You wouldn't want someone calling you a communist by being all sloppy and not wanting to split hairs.

That's exactly how MAGA thinks: it's too dangerous to split hairs now, so all leftists are communists.

I understand that nuance is not good in a  battle. But battle is what we are trying to avoid.

If there was a big authoritarian Communist takeover of the government, and I was explicitly supporting the people in power who were making it happen and creating propaganda that normalized Communism... even though my ideology is not explicitly a Communist ideology, then it would be fair (in that instance) to call me a Communist because those would be my effective politics.

So, there would be nuances if there wasn't an active attempt at a Fascist authoritarian takeover of the government. Everyone who supports that or who creates propaganda that helps with that is functionally a Fascist.

It's not about one's abstract ideology. It's about what they're actively functionally supporting.

[Scholar]

Americans simply are so ignorant and arrogant, there is no other way to remedy it than through experiencing suffering. You have been maggots swimming in bacon for too long. 

 

This is pessimistic, but I truly do not see any other way. The ignorance is not going to just go away by itself.

 

There is a humility that comes from experiencing the horrors of human nature. If you have had no contact with that horror, it is hard to motivate yourself to put in the effort to prevent it.

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You are muddying the waters, as I described above.

You keep making it about fascism, when it is about humanity.

I didn't read your original thing. I just saw your quip about how misguided I am... with no supporting information on it. 

[Emerald]

29 minutes ago, Scholar said:

The issue is that people have not learned from the lessons of World War 2. I think the fascist/nazi label as it is employed by americans reveals that they have no understand of what fascism is or how it emerged.

It has been assumed that fascists are these abnormal individuals who radical ideologies who will infect the public with their ideology and radicalize them. It's "them", the "fascists", they are "out there". This externalized view of what fascism is makes it impossible to fight fascism.

 

The key lesson that we were supposed to learn from the holocaust is that, it's not "fascists" who are going to bring the hatred that will be the prerequisite of new authoritarian systems. This label fundamentally veils what fascists are: Normal human beings.

 

This was the lesson, that perfectly normal human beings, perfectly upstanding and otherwise moral individuals, could end up supporting a system that would genocide entire subgroups of humans. By externalizing and conceptualizing this threat to "the rise of fascists", fascism was in fact enabled, impossible to prevent.

Why? Because to prevent fascism, you must prevent aspects that exists in all of us from taking hold. It's not about ideology, it's not about "fascists", it's about the average person.

 

When you say "They are fascists", what you in essence have done is give fascism an invisibility cloak. Nobody considers themselves a fascist, and therefore whatever aspect that will give rise to fascism, they will simply reject as being what will allow fascism to take hold. Because they are not fascists, they are just normal humans. When you label the problem "fascism", you make it seem like it requires something special to enable fascism. It requires an ideology, specific political or moral attitudes. 

 

In germany, children have always been taught that it was normal human beings, just like them, who caused the holocaust. It wasn't "THE FASCISTS", or "THE IDEOLOGY", it was just normal human beings, with normal human tendencies, who inevitably treaded down the road of darkness.

Why is this so essential to understand? Because it makes clear that what enables "fascism" is something that exists within everyone on of us, always. The nazis were not special, they were not evil, they were good people convinced they were doing the right thing.

 

The mental model of fascism as an infection ideological disease does the precise opposite of preventing it. By framing fascists as evil, no good person will ever consider themselves a fascist. And everyone considers themselves to be good. This is precisely what ENABLES fascism to take hold. Good people who believe that only bad people can lead us down a path of fascism. That fascism is a sickness of the mind, not a part of the average human condition.

 

But it's not, "fascism" is the norm, not the exception. If you doubt that, you merely have to look at what human beings do to animals.

100%

I just mentioned earlier in the thread that Fascism is incredibly banal and normal. It's not some extraordinary evil. It's not rare... it's common.

It's your friends, brothers, sisters, parents, etc.

But it's still important to be able to call Fascism what it is... and not muddy the waters.

The issue is in thinking that Fascism is rare. It's not. It's a common and banal evil.

[Scholar]

Just now, Emerald said:

I didn't read your original thing. I just saw your quip about how misguided I am... with no supporting information on it. 

Making fascism your enemy gives fascism precisely what it needs to fester and grow: Resistance, conflict.

 

Fascism never was your enemy, humanity was. You were too late to recognize it, and now it might be too late to stop it. Most likely, your actions now will serve to accelerate the process rather than prevent it. That is the sad reality.

[Scholar]

Just now, Emerald said:

100%

I just mentioned earlier in the thread that Fascism is incredibly banal and normal. It's not some extraordinary evil. It's not rare... it's common.

It's your friends, brothers, sisters, parents, etc.

But it's still important to be able to call Fascism what it is... and not muddy the waters.

The issue is in thinking that Fascism is rare. It's not. It's a common and banal evil.

It is muddying the water, because people externalize fascism. Calling it out will do nothing other than give the fascists what they need, which is conflict.

You are treating symptom rather than causes. And in this particular case, treating the symptoms worsens the causes. I don't understand why anyone believes that calling out fascism will do anything. 

 

If this is the propose solution, then you are lost. In that case, the only way forward is through the darkness.