Conservative activist, Charlie Kirk, has been shot and killed at University

[Elliott]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

I don't agree with what Kirk was pushing at all but over time as Leo said this could emotionally damage someone- then compound this what the left is pushing and you get what we have here.  Both sides are to blame however I'm specifically disputing the left's viewpoint on the current government.  Its guys like @zazen and others that invoke fear that something like a Nazi Germany could and is the process of happening here when it's not.  But that is what is being portrayed - and being an ally of Israel feeds into it when they call what Israel is doing a genocide.   Its an easy way for them to scream fascism.

Zazen shouldn't discuss this?

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

How is it the left’s fault that the shooter turned out to be a Nick Fuentes groyper? Charlie was killed for not being right-wing ENOUGH, not for being too right-wing. 
 

Lol. You're in some fantasy world. 

Edited Saturday at 01:31 PM by Inliytened1

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Zazen shouldn't discuss this?

Of course he can but I think everyone should back off the fascism kick look where it got the left.  Now they look like the definition you posted not the right.  The shooter was being a fascist without even being conscious of it.  

Edited Saturday at 01:41 PM by Inliytened1

[Elliott]

7 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Of course he can but I think everyone should back off the fascism kick look where it got the left.  Now they look like the definition you posted not the right.  The shooter was a being a fascist without even being conscious of it.  

But, you're allowed to call people fascist, what's the difference that allows that?

Edited Saturday at 01:41 PM by Elliott

[nerdspeak]

The shooter was not a leftist. Leftism means organized left-wing political groups, this guy appears to have been a lone weirdo with over-exposure to firearms from a young age. 

[Elliott]

@Inliytened1

The shooter was fascist, but January 6th wasn't?

 

"Fascism is generally defined as a political movement that embraces far-right nationalism and the forceful suppression of any opposition,"

Edited Saturday at 01:45 PM by Elliott

[Elliott]

1 hour ago, Joel3102 said:

 Dems are always playing defence, the dynamic has to shift so I guess he’s playing a small part there.

The good guys are inherently on defense, in every scenario.

Edited Saturday at 01:51 PM by Elliott

[Joel3102]

3 minutes ago, Elliott said:

The good guys are inherently on defense, in every scenario.

Berlin, 1945?

[Elliott]

35 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

Berlin, 1945?

I think we're talking about 2 different things, sort of. I regress, this is what I meant.

The allies were the ones that started wwii, they wanted wwii? Nazis surrendered in 44'?

Self-defense, can include killing. It's not Football.

Democrats attack, look at all the arrests from 2020, thousands, unprecedented. Look at the record setting protests the last 9 months. Lawsuits they've won.

Edited Saturday at 02:29 PM by Elliott

[PurpleTree]

50 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

How is it the left’s fault that the shooter turned out to be a Nick Fuentes groyper? Charlie was killed for not being right-wing ENOUGH, not for being too right-wing. 
 

EDIT: Remember when a groyper tried to kill Trump in 2024? Or groypers attacked the Capitol and got nine people killed? Or when groypers killed a protestor in Charlottesville? Or when a groyper killed dozens of innocent mosque worshippers in Christchurch?

Nazism, by definition, is the lethal implementation of white supremacy. That’s why they committed the Holocaust. That’s why they kill political opponents and minorities today. It’s a death cult in its psychology to the core. It’s demon worship in its most obvious and vile essence.

Why are they called groypers?

[Apparition of Jack]

38 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Why are they called groypers?

They’re named after a Pepe the Frog variant called “Groyper.”

They’re extremely embedded in the hyper-ironic internet “meme war” bullshit that has been floating around since at least GamerGate. It’s a tactic to both make their movement more palatable to disaffected young people and deflect from criticisms for being genocidal Nazis through layers of insincere irony (“my Pepe the Frog meme in Nazi garb crushing a Jewish person isn’t a call to antisemtic violence, it’s just an edgy joke!”)
 

Edit: The Wikipedia article on them is pretty good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers

 

Edit #2: Even more damning evidence against Nick Fuentes and the groypers. 

Edited Saturday at 02:48 PM by Apparition of Jack

[Human Mint]

What is even more startling is what was being discussed at the moment of the assassination, obviously a direct connection. Look for yourself

[PurpleTree]

46 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

They’re named after a Pepe the Frog variant called “Groyper.”

They’re extremely embedded in the hyper-ironic internet “meme war” bullshit that has been floating around since at least GamerGate. It’s a tactic to both make their movement more palatable to disaffected young people and deflect from criticisms for being genocidal Nazis through layers of insincere irony (“my Pepe the Frog meme in Nazi garb crushing a Jewish person isn’t a call to antisemtic violence, it’s just an edgy joke!”)
 

Edit: The Wikipedia article on them is pretty good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers

 

Edit #2: Even more damning evidence against Nick Fuentes and the groypers. 

And is it proven that it was those „groypers“ on January 6 and with Charlie Kirk or are you just throwing wild accusations around?

[Apparition of Jack]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

And is it proven that it was those „groypers“ on January 6 and with Charlie Kirk or are you just throwing wild accusations around?

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/22/jan-6-committee-releases-full-final-report-on-capitol-attack-00075380

https://www.adl.org/resources/article/extremists-face-arrests-uncertain-future-following-january-6-insurrection

These aren’t allegations, these are documented facts. The “QAnon Shaman” (remember him?) held groyper ideology. 

Use your eyes, bro. Radical Nazis have infiltrated the highest levels of our society.

Edited Saturday at 03:15 PM by Apparition of Jack

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/22/jan-6-committee-releases-full-final-report-on-capitol-attack-00075380

https://www.adl.org/resources/article/extremists-face-arrests-uncertain-future-following-january-6-insurrection

These aren’t allegations, these are documented facts. The “QAnon Shaman” (remember him?) held groyper ideology. 

Use your eyes, bro. Radical Nazis have infiltrated the highest levels of our society.

Alright. Because i watched a bit of Fuentes talk about Charlie Kirk yesterday and he said stuff like. Lay down the weapons, don’t be violent, be Christian, think about Jesus, don’t do civil war and so on blabla

[Apparition of Jack]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

Alright. Because i watched a bit of Fuentes talk about Charlie Kirk yesterday and he said stuff like. Lay down the weapons, don’t be violent, be Christian, think about Jesus, don’t do civil war and so on blabla

 Most likely he’s trying to cover his tracks. Trying to distance himself from the very real hate he fomented and to avoid the very obvious criminal investigations coming his way. 

[Elliott]

12 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

 Most likely he’s trying to cover his tracks. Trying to distance himself from the very real hate he fomented and to avoid the very obvious criminal investigations coming his way. 

They're also trying to create this as a false flag that 'leftists are murdering conservatives'. Like @Inliytened1 is doing here. To incite violence against the left. @Inliytened1 is essentially calling leftists fascists, which is the trigger word for "kill leftists", per @Inliytened1.

 

 

Stephen Miller, the guy running the U.S., is a groyper.

Edited Saturday at 03:39 PM by Elliott

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Both sides are to blame however I'm specifically disputing the left's viewpoint on the current government.  Its guys like @zazen and others that invoke fear that something like a Nazi Germany could and is the process of happening here when it's not. 

I actually gave MAGA the benefit of the doubt initially and didn't agree with slapping them with the fascist label. But seeing how things are turning out it's slipping into that territory in its own way.  There's actually nothing inherently fascist or wrong with grievance politics (grievances) or cultural panic (fear of cultural loss and belonging) - fascism is what shows up in the solution and its implementation. If that solution excludes or scapegoats whole groups, and uses intimidation or violence to enforce that solution - bingo you got some fascism no?

It's legitimate concerns gone about in illegitimate ways - the problem of the left can be that they don't always consider or understand those concerns as legitimate - and simply slap on the racist-fascist label simplistically. Grievance politics shouldn't turn into purity politics that seek to purge those from society that are scapegoated as the cause of those grievances.

Also - I literally commented on how US fascism isn't going to look like Nazi Germany or fascism of old. MAGA has the energy of facism but not the infrastructure to fully replicate it. It has the grievance fueled rhetoric of decline (cultural-national) and rebirth, scapegoats (immigrants, elites, wokies) and some flirtation with violence or full on affair with it depending on who you ask.

But there's no paramilitary fusion with the state, and there's no replacement of the liberal technocratic bureaucracy with MAGA loyalists at the scale needed to call it a full blown fascist makeover of the state - it's not total and there are structural constraints as to why. They don't have a big enough pool of loyalists to pull from and staff the state at such a scale - which is also why they perhaps want to shrink or defund what they can't control. They want to shrink the state to concentrate power, and sidestep the need for a loyalist bureaucracy.

7 hours ago, zazen said:

The classic definition of facism and communist don’t cleanly map onto what’s happening today if we only use their worst historical examples as barometers. It’s like how Zionists will say genocide isn’t occurring because it doesn’t match the Holocaust or Rwanda like a carbon copy.

Theirs a danger in using definitions too loosely  - because it’s premature, demonizing and polarizing. But then again -  there’s a preventive logic in broadly defining something as a danger in order to stop it in its tracks.

People call something “fascist” or “genocidal” early on not because it resembles Mussolini’s Italy or Rwandas genocide but because they fear it could harden into that if left unchecked.

But also - not every case is supposed to look like its worst example of those definitions. Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin notoriously cemented those definitions, so we historically gravitate to those examples as anchors whenever those words are evoked.

It’s possible to have facism and communism with American characteristics. So what is US facism?

I don’t think US christo-facism will look like the total fascism of the 20th century because they lack the educated bureaucratic staff to run the machinery of the state in such a total way as to impose their vision top down. The base is made up of blue collar workers which means they don't have the pool of white collar professionals needed to staff the institutions to carry out their vision. This is why “the establishment” generally leans liberal for that very structural reason.

That’s why all they can do is gut institutions rather than have the capacity to build or revamp institutions in their own image. The same reason they can’t run a modern expansive government of a superpower is the same reason their international imperial empire will be in rapid retreat. This doesn’t mean it won’t be bad at home - it will be patchy authoritarianism using the existing tools of state, but not totalizing the state for their own end. Relief abroad from US imperialism, repression at home.

The US right are reactionary populists with patchy authoritarianism and racists among their ranks. The US left are technocratic liberal reformists with commie revolutionaries among theirs. But the extremes within their own ranks don’t define the total. Generally, the right aren’t pushing an organized ideaology of racial supremacy and domination - and the left aren’t pushing a commie revolution to abolish private property.

The larger point to all this is why the polarization in the first place? Ask yourselves if this is structurally due to the inherent contradictions within liberal democracy itself?

If liberalism encourages diversity, and democracy gives those differences political power - then when those differences grow too divergent, each side uses politics to impose its “vision of America” on the other. Social media and dumbed down discourse doesn’t help in fueling that conflict over whose version should prevail.

Everyone's circling around the what, what about the why though? 

[Apparition of Jack]

3 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Stephen Miller, the guy running the U.S., is a groyper.

Yep. So is Steve Bannon, Richard Spencer, Tucker Carlson and Elon Musk. 
 

We are literally run by Nazis. Not hyperbole.

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Yep. So is Steve Bannon, Richard Spencer, Tucker Carlson and Elon Musk. 
 

We are literally run by Nazis. Not hyperbole.

I personally think it's irresponsible to call Bannon, Carlson, or Musk nazis: they're idiots, but they don't call for violence. Miller does.

Edited Saturday at 03:44 PM by Elliott