Why does my spiritual teacher say "we are pure awareness during sleep"? (please)

[UpperMaster]

Hi guys., 

I have a spiritual mentor who is specialized in Ramana Maharshi's practice. I am having a heated discussion with him on the topic of Consciousness during sleep. 

He says that (I am simplifying):

Sleep is a state where we are aware of nothing but our own being.

To back up his claim he says that: When you say “I slept”, you mean “I was not aware of anything” but how could you know that we were not aware of anything unless you were aware of being in that state. 

He says: "If awareness ceased in sleep, we would not be aware of any gap between successive states of waking and dream, so we would be aware only of these two states, and would have absolutely no awareness of the fact that our awareness of phenomena regularly ceases in gaps between successive states of waking and dream."

He says that I am confusing “absence of awareness of phenomena” with the “absence of awareness itself.”

 

This makes absolutely no sense to me: 

 I don’t believe I’m confusing the “absence of awareness of phenomena” with the “absence of awareness itself.

Matter of fact, I am claiming that there's no such thing as an "absence of awareness of phenomena”

In my view, the mere recognition that we’ve slept is not evidence of awareness during sleep.  The only reason I know that I slept is because I remember the moments before falling asleep and after waking up from bed.  Going into bed, then waking up hours later feeling well rested act like external cues, along with a sense of time that passed and continuity, confirm that I slept. basically my experiences suggest that I have slept. 

Hypothetically let’s assume I somehow slept, but all my experiences say otherwise.  If your point were true, then even if all external cues suggested I hadn’t slept, I would still know I had slept simply because I was supposedly “aware” during sleep. 

But that does not seem to be the case.

In my opinion, I only conclude that I slept because of the before and after context, not from any awareness during the sleep state itself.

 

Movie analogy:

His analogy: "As Bhagavan said, mere awareness is like the screen on which cinema pictures are projected. Whether pictures (awareness of phenomena) appear of the screen or not, the screen always remains unchanged and unaffected, so rather than attending to the phenomena we should try to attend to the background screen of awareness, on which they appear and disappear."

My counter analogy: In a movie, scenes may change to show time has passed, but the projector keeps running through-out the movie without stopping. What he's describing sounds more like the projector switches off (leaving an empty screen) entirely during sleep and then turns back on later.  But for me, there’s no sense of any delay at all, theres no pause. The moment before sleep and the moment after waking feel directly connected. It doesn’t feel like the projector ever stopped.

Sleep feels more like a shift from one scene to another rather than the projectors stopping temporarily.

I am just looking for different perspectives so I can bring into the discussion with him.

Edited August 29 by UpperMaster

[UpperMaster]

Also what does it mean to be pure awareness, "during" sleep. What is time in all of this??

[Leo Gura]

It is a mistake to focus on the past or future. Look at your consciousness right now.

Sleep is imaginary.

[UpperMaster]

I am sorry, I don't understand when you say that because I'm not even sure what sleep "is" for it to be imaginary. To me sleep is also phenomena. Sleep is what I call going to bed, then randomly teleporting to the future with no loss of continuity. (so I guess sleep is imaginary, idk if you view it the way I do tho)

 

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is a mistake to focus on the past or future. Look at your consciousness right now.

 

Yea see I researched a bit more, Rupert Spira was explaining how even time is an imagined dimension within the waking state. This actually makes sense, as then there's only the present, and it's everlasting. I am not sure if I am going in the right direction. 

Past could have never happened, I have memories of the past but that's about it, only the present moment is available to me. There is no proof beyond memories that time actually exists. So it makes sense that maybe time doesn't exist and its always the ever present and basically going to sleep means you get back to ever present consciousness without even aspects of time and space. 

idk if Im going right direction. Its not crystal clear yet.

Edited August 29 by UpperMaster

[UpperMaster]

I just realized one more thing. 

I can't even describe awareness without any phenomena. When describing something, you would use phenomena to describe it. Like shape color, even time, there's always something. 

But awareness without phenomena, is nothing, except itself. I am not sure how to continue from this realization though I'll be honest.

I am not sure why or what proof can be given to suggest that this absence of phenomena is occurred during sleep. 

 

Edited August 29 by UpperMaster

[AION]

Sleep is consciousness without the restraints of the physical world. You can actually lucid dream and become aware of this which is being woke during your sleep and realizing the narrative. 

Edited August 29 by AION

[Hojo]

You are a void of nothing dreaming up a first person view. The void of nothing is here right now close your eyes. Its hiding from you. Deep sleep is right there while you are awake. When you go to sleep you are taking everything that isn't you and ignoring it until you reach your true state. Then you are just sitting there staring at yourself in deep sleep. You aren't sleeping you are still concious you just identify with everything outside of you so you think you are dissapeaeing from a reality. Your still aware while sleeping you just think you aren't aware cause there is nothing there and thats what you are.

If you die it will be like you awake up in the morning but all the content of life remains gone and you become concious in the void of nothing and you cant do anything but look at it.

Edited August 29 by Hojo

[Ishanga]

I think this relates to the so called "6th sense" or an ability to sense/be aware that is beyond the normal 5 senses.. When in Deep Sleep the 5 senses are still working, everything is still being recorded but we are not Aware of it in normal consciousness.  Normal Consciousness is Survival based, our senses gives us enough data to live another day generally, the Spiritual Masters over the millennia have been sharing and teaching us ways to Perceive and be Aware beyond the Survival based senses.

The AUM symbol represents the  4 States of Consciousness, Waking State, Dream State, Deep Sleep State and High Consciousness State, the whole goal is too have Your Awareness rooted in the High Consciousness state or Chitta, which is Absolute or Source Intelligence.

But what is it that is Aware of this Chitta? It is the Atman or Soul per say, which is basically what we really Are, we are not the Body or Mind or Karmic Substance that allows Creation to exist, its Pure Consciousness, when Your intouch with this Bliss is natural...Via Spiritual Sadhana or practices a Human Being can be intouch with this on a constant basis.

My Guru says Deep Sleep is practice for Death as the two are related, Your Body and Mind and Karma are still in play while in Deep Sleep, if Your Awareness is high then You can be Aware of everything while in Deep Sleep, he also says the Deep Sleep state can be achieved while being Active and Doing things in the world, one can be very relaxed, no stress fight/flight response while working, thinking, and living a normal life, its just a matter of mastery of the System...The first goal is the realize that You are not the Body or Mind, when that space is Experientially there, then things start to progress..

Edited August 29 by Ishanga

[cetus]

@UpperMaster Your mentor is talking about "Turiya" (beyond the 4th state). The first 3 being waking, dreaming, deep sleep. Deep sleep being the closest to turiya.  The true self being prior to consciousness, beyond experience. Before the first thought of "I" which projects the self and the world. 

This state can't be conceptualized because it's beyond human understanding/ beyond all concepts. It is the absence of absence.

 

[cetus]

2 hours ago, UpperMaster said:

But awareness without phenomena, is nothing, except itself. I am not sure how to continue from this realization though I'll be honest.

Imagine a movie and frames are projected on a screen. The screen being awareness of "I am" and the frames being phenomena. Now imagine some of the footage was removed. You know something is missing but there is no experience of it. It's like that. To put it simply you vanish and take all experience with you. Poof- gone!

Edited August 29 by cetus

[UpperMaster]

On 8/29/2025 at 2:00 PM, Hojo said:

If you die it will be like you awake up in the morning but all the content of life remains gone and you become concious in the void of nothing and you cant do anything but look at it.

I can't even conceptualize what that means. I am struggling to even conceptualize void of nothing because by definition there is nothing to characterize it.

[UpperMaster]

On 8/29/2025 at 2:10 PM, Ishanga said:

I think this relates to the so called "6th sense" or an ability to sense/be aware that is beyond the normal 5 senses.. When in Deep Sleep the 5 senses are still working, everything is still being recorded but we are not Aware of it in normal consciousness.  Normal Consciousness is Survival based, our senses gives us enough data to live another day generally, the Spiritual Masters over the millennia have been sharing and teaching us ways to Perceive and be Aware beyond the Survival based senses.

The AUM symbol represents the  4 States of Consciousness, Waking State, Dream State, Deep Sleep State and High Consciousness State, the whole goal is too have Your Awareness rooted in the High Consciousness state or Chitta, which is Absolute or Source Intelligence.

But what is it that is Aware of this Chitta? It is the Atman or Soul per say, which is basically what we really Are, we are not the Body or Mind or Karmic Substance that allows Creation to exist, its Pure Consciousness, when Your intouch with this Bliss is natural...Via Spiritual Sadhana or practices a Human Being can be intouch with this on a constant basis.

My Guru says Deep Sleep is practice for Death as the two are related, Your Body and Mind and Karma are still in play while in Deep Sleep, if Your Awareness is high then You can be Aware of everything while in Deep Sleep, he also says the Deep Sleep state can be achieved while being Active and Doing things in the world, one can be very relaxed, no stress fight/flight response while working, thinking, and living a normal life, its just a matter of mastery of the System...The first goal is the realize that You are not the Body or Mind, when that space is Experientially there, then things start to progress..

 

What you said here is very interesting. I didn't know about the "High Consciousness" state. I thought the main state to attain was pure consciousness or the understanding of consciousness during deep sleep.

Also you mentioned the soul? According to you we have a soul? How does it work? 

Your view seems very different from what I am used to. I have no idea how karma works, what spiritual path have you chosen so I know more about it?

[UpperMaster]

On 8/29/2025 at 2:30 PM, cetus said:

@UpperMaster Your mentor is talking about "Turiya" (beyond the 4th state). The first 3 being waking, dreaming, deep sleep. Deep sleep being the closest to turiya.  The true self being prior to consciousness, beyond experience. Before the first thought of "I" which projects the self and the world. 

This state can't be conceptualized because it's beyond human understanding/ beyond all concepts. It is the absence of absence.

 

Yes exactly, I am struggling to conceptualize lmao. Makes sense. Have you experienced this state? How does it feel? What changes has it made to waking state?

[UpperMaster]

On 8/29/2025 at 2:54 PM, cetus said:

Imagine a movie and frames are projected on a screen. The screen being awareness of "I am" and the frames being phenomena. Now imagine some of the footage was removed. You know something is missing but there is no experience of it. It's like that. To put it simply you vanish and take all experience with you. Poof- gone!

I'll be honest I didn't understand that much

[UpperMaster]

Thanks for all the replies. My bad for my late replies I was not feeling well the past couple days.

[cetus]

17 minutes ago, UpperMaster said:

Yes exactly, I am struggling to conceptualize lmao. Makes sense. Have you experienced this state? How does it feel? What changes has it made to waking state?

@UpperMaster It has no "experience". It is the absence of all "states". During deep meditation I surrendered to the "state" of Samadhi/total union, and I vanished. Total absorption. The wave disappeared into the ocean.

[UnbornTao]

Someone may assist you in some ways, but what good does it do to stand on hearsay, no matter its source?

Realizing the "answer" requires experiential investigation, which goes beyond merely thinking about a subject in the abstract.

Find out for yourself - which is to say, find out what your nature is. It seems that your approach would need to change, then, as you're focused on mentally piecing things together. This is putting the cart before the horse.

[Carl-Richard]

You're too identified with the objects of awareness that awareness without objects seems like nothing to you. Only in awareness with objects, there is time. Only in awareness with objects, there is space. If you spend all of your life trapped in space and time, then that will be all you think is real.

Edited September 2 by Carl-Richard

[Hojo]

@UpperMaster its like deep sleep. Only you are aware you are in it. It feels like you are one side a black hole looking at the other side of the black hole which is also you. And something weird happens where you are both sides of the black hole looking at itself from the middle of it and you cant move or talk or breathe.

Like you feel you are one side and the other side but you can't be those sides you are something else you are the empty middle.

This is happening in real life right now. You think you are human looking at the screen but you aren't you are the middle looking at both side from the point of view of one of the sides.

Edited September 3 by Hojo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Awareness is typically framed by humans as subject - object.

The awareness is the subject - the object being the 'thing' EG thought, concept, feeling, sensation.

YOU are aware of thoughts. YOU are aware of smells, sounds. Subject + object.

What is the subject (awareness) without the object? IE when something is not present to be perceived? This is deep sleep.

So, in deep sleep - the subject (awareness) has no object to relate to. No experience is being generated. Nothing is being perceived. No sensations. No feelings. No thoughts. There is just pure awareness present. And only pure awareness.

So this is why deep sleep is said to be pure awareness.

Something like that