Debunking Solipsism

[Meeksauce]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Well logically that is impossible. Im definitely conscious. Are you telling me that you are not conscious. Be honest, are you just some cartoon character in my dream ?

Just asking someone if they're conscious will never prove or disprove anything. How do you know you're not the first person ever to exist? Or the last?

[Wilhelm44]

Just now, Meeksauce said:

Just asking someone if they're conscious will never prove or disprove anything. How do you know you're not the first person ever to exist? Or the last?

Likewise it's also impossible to prove solipsism. 

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Well logically that is impossible. Im definitely conscious. Are you telling me that you are not conscious. Be honest, are you just some cartoon character in my dream ?

If it only was so simple. This doesn't prove anything.  Try asking a dream character: "hey buddy ..are you conscious? "

He is probably going to answer:"yes ".

See what I'm saying? 

[Wilhelm44]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

If it only was so simple. This doesn't prove anything.  Try asking a dream character: "hey buddy ..are you conscious? "

He is probably going to answer:"yes ".

See what I'm saying? 

Why is the onus on me to disprove solipsism.

The onus should be on whoever is trying to prove solipsism.

And that cant be done either.

So a month from now we'll have this conversation again.

[Meeksauce]

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Likewise it's also impossible to prove solipsism. 

Right. I don't see how reality can be absolutely infinite like Leo and so many claim but also solipsism is true. Absolutely infinity literally implies in infinite number of consciousnesses. You have to choose between solipsism (One POV, infinite possibility space) or absolute infinity (infinite POVs with infinite possibility spaces). For me I'm choosing the notion of God that is larger, grander, more magical, more awesome. And that for me is one that simply just includes the maximum amount of stuff.

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Why is the onus on me to disprove solipsism.

The onus should be on whoever is trying to prove solipsism.

And that cant be done either.

So a month from now we'll have this conversation again.

with all honesty I have no clue . Leo says go get wasted on 5 meo a hundred times and then you will get it and it will stick. So I'm setting that as a goal .but my gut feeling is that solipsism is obviously true despite how radical and far fetched it seems . Because there is a lot of suspicious phenomenon in life that points to this .but the bottom line is I'm agnostic about it .

 

[Wilhelm44]

Yeah, I guess it's kinda pointless talking about it. I enjoy watching Leo's solipsism episode every few months and it always does something for me.

[Meeksauce]

16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

with all honesty I have no clue . Leo says go get wasted on 5 meo a hundred times and then you will get it and it will stick. So I'm setting that as a goal .but my gut feeling is that solipsism is obviously true despite how radical and far fetched it seems . Because there is a lot of suspicious phenomenon in life that points to this .but the bottom line is I'm agnostic about it .

 

I guess some questions are so deep you can only take them up with the G man himself. I'll be trying 5meo as soon as I get my health back, with an open of a mind as possible. I recently ditched all of my spiritual beliefs about no self, solipsism, consciousness, etc. I am even open to materialism at this point. It's important to be aware of the delusion and self reference problems you can run into with psychedelics. Also damn this website is buggy as hell

16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

with all honesty I have no clue . Leo says go get wasted on 5 meo a hundred times and then you will get it and it will stick. So I'm setting that as a goal .but my gut feeling is that solipsism is obviously true despite how radical and far fetched it seems . Because there is a lot of suspicious phenomenon in life that points to this .but the bottom line is I'm agnostic about it .

 

28 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Likewise it's also impossible to prove solipsism. 

28 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

 

[Hojo]

@Meeksauce are you saying you need a second to verify that the first has them all? In that case I would argue then you need a third to meditate the 2 cause the 2nd could be lying.

Edited Friday at 01:26 PM by Hojo

[Meeksauce]

22 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Meeksauce are you saying you need a second to verify that the first has them all? In that case I would argue then you need a third to meditate the 2 cause the 2nd could be lying.

Wait sorry which point is this referring to?

49 minutes ago, Someone here said:

with all honesty I have no clue . Leo says go get wasted on 5 meo a hundred times and then you will get it and it will stick. So I'm setting that as a goal .but my gut feeling is that solipsism is obviously true despite how radical and far fetched it seems . Because there is a lot of suspicious phenomenon in life that points to this .but the bottom line is I'm agnostic about it .

 

1 hour ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Likewise it's also impossible to prove solipsism. 

1 hour ago, Wilhelm44 said:

 

[aurum]

5 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I am conscious. Are you saying that you are not conscious ?

🙃🙃🙃

[OBEler]

8 hours ago, Someone here said:

with all honesty I have no clue . Leo says go get wasted on 5 meo a hundred times and then you will get it and it will stick. So I'm setting that as a goal .but my gut feeling is that solipsism is obviously true despite how radical and far fetched it seems . Because there is a lot of suspicious phenomenon in life that points to this .but the bottom line is I'm agnostic about it .

 

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

 

 

I really honor your answer. You have matured a lot. Back then you would claim you would know because you had some big awakenings etc.

Leo said it's not intellectual possible to understand you need an awakening to that.

Maybe watching his infinity of gods video again helps to understand at least a bit.

 

[Someone here]

8 minutes ago, OBEler said:

I really honor your answer. You have matured a lot. Back then you would claim you would know because you had some big awakenings etc.

Leo said it's not intellectual possible to understand you need an awakening to that.

Maybe watching his infinity of gods video again helps to understand at least a bit.

 

Thanks man . Of course. You can't do this work and chat with awesome intelligent people on this forum like you without growing . 

[ryoko]

Solipsism is a tool to make life playful and to accept others as they are. 

Can you know the truth? Yes.

Can you bs yourself into thinking this is the truth? Double yes. 

[Xonas Pitfall]

10 hours ago, Meeksauce said:

This sounds more like a definition of God than solipsism. Solipsism to me is the idea that only your mind exists and other beings have no consciousness.

Oh, but that is what is being said! The ego, as you experience it, is ultimately made of the same essence as everything else; it's a limited form of the same substance (God, Self). Solipsism, in the Actualized.org sense, isn’t claiming your limited perspective is the absolute truth. Instead, it focuses on the nature of the "substrate" or the origin of reality, what is the true substance of existence?

The limited perspective I’m referring to encompasses all the stories that shape your ego, your name, your family, and your experiences since birth, everything that contributes to your identity. However, beyond this, there’s the pure consciousness that is aware of all of it, the "you" or the "I Am-ness" that has always been present since the moment you were born. This pure awareness, the observing presence, is what solipsism points to. It is the eternal, unchanging aspect that has always existed and will continue to exist.

Everything else is a limited expression or extension of this essence.

Think of it like this: you're the storyteller of a story that you've created. The story is a second-order extension of you, but you are the first-order, the origin. Now, imagine you've created 10 different stories, each one separate, unique. Then, imagine 100 stories, 2000, and eventually, an infinite number of stories. Each story is a separate, limited expression, but they all stem from the same source: you.

It’s just very difficult to imagine this if you’ve never had psychedelic experiences, because "You" and the ego (your name, the story of how you were born, your sense of being and why you are in this present moment, your meanings, purpose, and attachments) are so deeply intertwined. You often mistake them for the same thing, but they couldn’t be further from the truth.

Once you experience a separation of "you" from the ego, you'll begin to see what solipsism is pointing to. That "you" is eternal and solipsistic, while everything else is limited, impermanent, and just an extension of it. A good metaphor would be that you forgot you created all the other stories and became deeply attached to a single one. Over time, you began to believe the character in that story was you. Solipsism isn’t claiming that you are just the singular story, but rather that you are the creator of all the stories. And that creator is singular, solipsistic, eternal, and God.

Edited Friday at 10:33 PM by Xonas Pitfall

[SOUL]

Why does it seem like there is always the appearance of others arguing about solipsism? Don't make me pull this illusion over and give you all something to cry about!

Edited Saturday at 05:52 AM by SOUL

[Yeah Yeah]

There is but one truth in all existence and I know what this one singular truth is, so that everything falls to the waist side, I'm talking science, philosophy, if the earth is round or flat, there is but one truth

[metamember]

17 hours ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

A good metaphor would be that you forgot you created all the other stories and became deeply attached to a single one. Over time, you began to believe the character in that story was you. Solipsism isn’t claiming that you are just the singular story, but rather that you are the creator of all the stories. And that creator is singular, solipsistic, eternal, and God.

Do you get to experience all other (or any other) stories when you become conscious that you create all other stories? Or is it more of a story-less experience?

Getting slightly off-topic, but one thing that's been bugging me about the way Leo discusses Truth is that he often equates concepts like 'unicorns' and 'the past experiences of my life' and 'physics' as all being 'pure fantasy'. Like, surely we're able to make some finer-grain distinctions between concepts... surely some concepts are more connected to reality/truth than other concepts?

Isn't it fair enough to assume that there is actually a real place called China (even though I've never experienced it directly) when so many things in my direct experience have suggested that a place called China does in fact, exist?  Isn't it fair enough to assume that my past experiences actually happened (and are not imagined, even though I am remembering them, which, yeah I guess is like a form of imagination, but not in the same sense as imagining a planet made out of bananas, for example) given that I have memories of them? Isn't it fair enough to assume that I was born when I see other people get born and grow up to become a unique person, like me?

Isn't it fair enough to assume that other people are having their own unique experience of reality when they are over there, doing their thing, and here I am, and hey, we both agree on some things about this reality we find ourselves in, but not everything, and we both express ourselves in a unique way...

If we are all one being, aka God, having a unique experience of reality, that's pretty cool, but we're still all having unique experiences, and physics is still more real than a unicorn. 

Edited Saturday at 03:56 PM by metamember

[Leo Gura]

@Meeksauce The flaw in your logic is that for God to be omniscient and omnipotent it must have absolute sovereignty of mind. This is only achieved by having no other.

If others exist, they automatically break absolute sovereignty of mind, which means God can't exist.

What is God? God is the absolute ability to imagine anything without limit. This is only possible if it is the sole mind. As soon as you have more than one mind, power is divided between them. You can only have infinite imagination if no other entity exists to impinge upon you. Other minds would impinge upon your mind, thereby making you not-God.

As soon as God imagine another mind beyond itself, and takes that seriously, God stops being God.

You are welcome to imagine other minds, but then you aren't God. That's the price you pay if you want company. Or you can be God all alone. Up to you.

Most people would rather trade God for company. And so they do.

There is a further radical possibility of infinite sovereign minds all permanently isolated from each others. With no way to connect. This is what my Infinite Gods video was about. But these others minds would not be the people you see in your life. They would be completely inaccessible to you. The people you see in your life would still all be your own mind, so this doesn't really help you escape solipsism.

Edited Saturday at 04:39 PM by Leo Gura

[Wilhelm44]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Meeksauce The flaw in your logic is that for God to be omniscient and omnipotent it must have absolute sovereignty of mind. This is only achieved by having no other.

If others exist, they automatically break absolute sovereignty of mind, which means God can't exist.

What is God? God is the absolute ability to imagine anything without limit. This is only possible if it is the sole mind. As soon as you have more than one mind, power is divided between them. You can only have infinite imagination if no other entity exists to impinge upon you. Other minds would impinge upon your mind, thereby making you not-God.

As soon as God imagine another mind beyond itself, and takes that seriously, God stops being God.

You are welcome to imagine other minds, but then you aren't God. That's the price you pay if you want company. Or you can be God all alone. Up to you.

Most people would rather trade God for company. And so they do.

But why can't it be a case of many apparent individuals who all have the potential to realize God consciousness. Why is that not a possibility ? Other characters are no more real than my character. My apparent character has the potential to realize itself as God. Why can't the same be true for my apparent neighbor ?