Debunking Solipsism

[Meeksauce]

I would like to present a series of premises which is logically coherent and tautologically throws a wrench in Leo's framework of absolute infinity.

1. God is infinite, unlimited, containing all possibilities, nothing is impossible for it
2. Therefore, other beings could technically have consciousness because experiencing the life of every being on earth is contained within the possibility space of infinity
3. You can't experience every being in the universe because infinity takes too long. You can go on forever in different bodies, but never reach the end of the full chain.
4. BUT, since God is everything possible at once, only from its POV can it experience every being. This means every being has to be experienced by something.
5. Therefore, there have to be an infinite number of self isolated "dreamers" to account for the totality of existence. I don't mean one consciousness per being, I mean one consciousness per indefinite beings, but an infinite amount of these. Similar to Leo's Infinity of Gods video. Really try to wrap your mind around this part.

You might say no you PROVED solipsism since every dreamer is self contained in their chain of being and may never come into contact with another dreamer, but to that I say no, this still proves other minds have to exist in order to fill the necessary quota of absolute infinity. The main assumption this line of reasoning makes that I could debate on is that infinity must actualize all possible experiences, not just dream them from one POV. But if you say that experience is dreamed from one POV, then it can't be absolutely infinite, can it?

Edited Thursday at 08:37 PM by Meeksauce

[Salvijus]

Just run it through AI and see what it says. 

I ran it through AI and it says if your metaphysical model is correct (your first point) than it debunks solipsism. And everyone on this forum and all spiritual traditions agree about your first point as the correct metaphysical model. 

So ggwp. Congrats. 

Edited Thursday at 08:28 PM by Salvijus

[OBEler]

@Meeksauce I had almost the same logic. And right now this is the only thing that makes sense to me so thanks for this topic.

[Hojo]

Imagine God is a very loud very static screen. When you die you merge with the static field which is just pure noise all voices ever all imagery combined into one continuous moving image. 

Like this, this video contains every movie every sound at the same time.

You die you see you were just looking at that very closely and making out certain pictures and sounds. When you see it you cant think and cant move theres no story no person to ask if its always been there. Is it solipsism now? You can look at this movie and see patterns happening in chaos, you can tell your brain to make something appear in the chaos.You life is a pattern in chaos of static.

For a meditation technique put this on with headphones full screen and create a life inside the static.

This is what is happening behind your eyes in the blackness.

Edited Thursday at 10:52 PM by Hojo

[Razard86]

Until you become Conscious of Nothingness you won't understand.

[aurum]

No, this is incorrect.

All supposed "other dreamers" are in your dream.

[Unlimited]

What you’re describing—an infinity of dreamers—is something you’re imagining. You don’t know if they’re real, conscious beings in the same sense as you. Infinity doesn’t require experiencing all possible beings simultaneously; it simply means all forms and possibilities are possible, and any can be dreamed. Right now, you as God are dreaming your life, and everything else, including these other dreamers.

Edited Thursday at 11:14 PM by Unlimited

[Sempiternity]

2 hours ago, Meeksauce said:

since God is everything possible at once, only from its POV can it experience every being. This means every being has to be experienced by something.

God is everything, all that there is. God is Consciousness. What is being experienced in direct experience, is God experiencing itself. There can't be anything outside of God, so there can't be anything outside of Consciousness, there can't be anything outside of Direct Experience. The concept of "other beings" can only be a concept occurring within Consciousness/Direct Experience/God.

Edited Thursday at 10:51 PM by Sempiternity

[Meeksauce]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Until you become Conscious of Nothingness you won't understand.

I plan on doing 5meo as soon as I can figure out how to get it

[Meeksauce]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

No, this is incorrect.

All supposed "other dreamers" are in your dream.

How do you know? I don't think they have to be

[Meeksauce]

2 hours ago, Unlimited said:

What you’re describing—an infinity of dreamers—is something you’re imagining. You don’t know if they’re real, conscious beings in the same sense as you. Infinity doesn’t require experiencing all possible beings simultaneously; it simply means all forms and possibilities are possible, and any can be dreamed. Right now, you as God are dreaming your life, and everything else, including these other dreamers.

Either solipsism is true and reality isn't absolutely infinite, or reality is absolutely infinite and solipsism isn't true. But to either I would say, how do you know? If you don't believe me on this - if reality were absolutely infinite, the sum total of everything possible experienced at once has to exist "within" it so to speak. Otherwise it would be leaving out something. Your premise that we are in a lone POV dreaming eternally is an ungrounded assumption.

[Meeksauce]

2 hours ago, Sempiternity said:

God is everything, all that there is. God is Consciousness. What is being experienced in direct experience, is God experiencing itself. There can't be anything outside of God, so there can't be anything outside of Consciousness, there can't be anything outside of Direct Experience. The concept of "other beings" can only be a concept occurring within Consciousness/Direct Experience/God.

If God can do anything, it can make separate consciousnesses. You said it yourself - God is all there is. My friend having a consciousness is a part of all there is, and without it God wouldn't be everything, leaving something outside of it. If you still claim this is in my imagination you are speaking from a place of ideology and are claiming to personally know all that is.

[Meeksauce]

3 hours ago, Hojo said:

Imagine God is a very loud very static screen. When you die you merge with the static field which is just pure noise all voices ever all imagery combined into one continuous moving image. 

Like this, this video contains every movie every sound at the same time.

You die you see you were just looking at that very closely and making out certain pictures and sounds. When you see it you cant think and cant move theres no story no person to ask if its always been there. Is it solipsism now? You can look at this movie and see patterns happening in chaos, you can tell your brain to make something appear in the chaos.You life is a pattern in chaos of static.

For a meditation technique put this on with headphones full screen and create a life inside the static.

This is what is happening behind your eyes in the blackness.

Yes, that would still be solipsism. What I'm getting is that every life possible exists, but you have the option to go into whichever one you choose. However, consider the possibility that if every conscious experience possible weren't adequately accounted for in first person POV, something that's possible would be outside of God, allowing for another consciousness either way.

[Hojo]

@Meeksauce Not from your point of view it can't. Leo said in his video if something that wasn't you came into your experience its automatically you because you cant know. Once you become aware of it its automatically assume to be generated from you. 

Even if there could be other Gods then the Gods appearing to you could just be your infinite power.

Edited Friday at 02:23 AM by Hojo

[aurum]

53 minutes ago, Meeksauce said:

How do you know? I don't think they have to be

When have you ever experienced another mind?

If you could experience another mind, where would that take place?

[Meeksauce]

19 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Meeksauce Not from your point of view it can't. Leo said in his video if something that wasn't you came into your experience its automatically you because you cant know. Once you become aware of it its automatically assume to be generated from you. 

Even if there could be other Gods then the Gods appearing to you could just be your infinite power.

Just so I'm not strawmanning, you're saying that even if you go through an infinite number of lives they would all occur to you so nobody "else" ever actually happens. What I'm saying is that every possible being could not be accounted for by one consciousness, no matter how many reincarnations. It would take an infinite number of completely isolated conscious bubbles to achieve absolute infinity.

[Meeksauce]

19 minutes ago, aurum said:

When have you ever experienced another mind?

If you could experience another mind, where would that take place?

These are dumb redundant questions. To be you, you have to be separate from other minds. And why would you have to experience multiple minds at once in order for other minds to be real. The second question just assumes solipsism is true on no ground whatsoever. Another mind would take place in the vacuum of empty space, or nowhere, just like your current mind.

[AtmanIsBrahman]

This sounds a lot like what Leo describes in his infinity of gods video. The issue with solipsism is that it's so fundamental and tautological that you can't use logic to argue around it. The fact is, you have only experienced your own consciousness, and that's all you ever can experience. That's a deep realization to have. Any other consciousness could just be imagined by you- there's no way to know that it exists independently. And what does it mean to say it exists independently? If everything is one/God, then nothing is independent of anything else. There's definitely something to solipsism, but there is also truth to the infinity of gods perspective that involves the other. Absolute truth is paradoxical.

[Meeksauce]

2 minutes ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

This sounds a lot like what Leo describes in his infinity of gods video. The issue with solipsism is that it's so fundamental and tautological that you can't use logic to argue around it. The fact is, you have only experienced your own consciousness, and that's all you ever can experience. That's a deep realization to have. Any other consciousness could just be imagined by you- there's no way to know that it exists independently. And what does it mean to say it exists independently? If everything is one/God, then nothing is independent of anything else. There's definitely something to solipsism, but there is also truth to the infinity of gods perspective that involves the other. Absolute truth is paradoxical.

I just used logic to argue around it. Yes there's no way to know other minds exist - but how do you know they don't exist? It goes both ways. What I'm pointing out is that the logic of solipsism is a) wildly inconsistent from person to person on this forum, and even across Leo's videos and b) Is a house of cards that can easily fold given a grander scheme of reality. I don't see how solipsism and absolute infinity can both be true, but hey, God should be capable of anything so you're right, why can't they both be true.

[Sempiternity]

5 hours ago, Meeksauce said:

If God can do anything, it can make separate consciousnesses. You said it yourself - God is all there is.

Only thing God cannot do, is not exist, as it's everything. God is Consciousness. There cannot be anything outside of God's consciousness. Consciousness is Direct Experience. Anything outside of Direct Experience is an assumption that it exists. To Direct Experience, it is all that there is. I can assume that there is a unicorn out there somewhere, that I am not currently experiencing, that does not make it so. I stick with what I 100% know to be true, and that is what is Direct Experience right Now. So by this, if it is not within Direct Experience, within Consciousness, it does not exist. And the only thing God cannot do is not exist. 

Edited Friday at 07:33 AM by Sempiternity