Resources to go vegan.

[PsychedelicEagle]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

And how much fiber do you need for longevity?

Unclear; for sure >25g/day. There is no evidence justifying eating as much as I eat, besides evolutionary evidence, but one could conjecture that going beyond 25g/day is beneficial. Especially since fiber-containing foods also have a phletora of other nutrients.

I'm not saying you need more fiber than protein. I'm saying fiber is the macronutrient (if you allow me to call it so) that is the most underconsumed nowadays.

There is way more people having fiber deficiency than protein deficiency.

Edited Thursday at 08:00 PM by PsychedelicEagle

[PsychedelicEagle]

3 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

What mechanism ?

The ones you just mentioned above. Just post what you wrote on GPT and ask it to critique it. It will come up with loads of evidence against it -- supporting the idea that fiber improves gut health.

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It don't will do differences beyond placebo effect.

Try eating a vegan diet vs an omnivore one... oh wait.

[aurum]

34 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

There is way more people having fiber deficiency than protein deficiency.

That part is potentially true.

People need to eat more nutrient dense, whole-foods in general. 

Edited Thursday at 08:33 PM by aurum

[Schizophonia]

12 hours ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

The ones you just mentioned above. Just post what you wrote on GPT and ask it to critique it. It will come up with loads of evidence against it -- supporting the idea that fiber improves gut health.

 

GPT basically works like an echo chamber so it has 0 worth.

Yes more fiber will makes you fart more and potentially generate gut pain at term.

It's what happens all the time, especially with some kinds of fibers. 

More fiber also constipates, unless you drink a ton of water. I've never been as constipated as when I ate dates or coconut; and my "primal" experience didn't induce constipation.
Of course, if you ask GPT for evidence that the opposite is true, he'll tell you that fiber must help with intestinal transit, etc.; that's ChatGPT, who's coming up with "mechanisms" to brush you off without empiricism (of course, since he's a machine).
There's actually a study that showed that fiber worsens intestinal problems, particularly constipation.

And eating 100g of fiber is dishusting anyway, you have to be very disconnected from the body to swallow so many fibrous foods, unless you take "fiber supplements" lol for some reason.

 

Edited Friday at 08:54 AM by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3435786/

Corresponds perfectly to my experience.

I'm not carnivore at all but Paul Mason talk about it there :

 

Edited Friday at 09:20 AM by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Try eating a vegan diet vs an omnivore one... oh wait.

A kiwi and a glass of orange juice have almost the same macronutrient composition, there's just a bit more fiber in the kiwi; there's no reason why orange juice would make me feel particularly different. It's a good thing the CNS isn't as influenced by the food we eat, because otherwise society wouldn't function.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

A kiwi and a glass of orange juice have almost the same macronutrient composition, there's just a bit more fiber in the kiwi; there's no reason why orange juice would make me feel particularly different.

You're treating fiber reductionistically like it's this one ingredient in a recipe, like one Lego brick in the Lego tower. No, it literally changes how the nutrients in the food are absorbed. And it's not just about the fiber, it's about the fruit as a whole. In the kiwi, all the nutrients are in a matrix of a living organism. In the orange juice, you've extracted the liquid from that matrix. Merely the geometry of the fruit alone, as a whole (on its surface) and in its holarchical structure, probably has a huge impact on how it's digested. And we don't have to mention the impact of chewing something before you swallow it. Imagine putting a human in a fruit press, extracting the juices (mostly blood and other bodily fluids) and discarding the "pulp", and saying "the rest is just fiber — tissue and bone — no big deal".

 

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

It's a good thing the CNS isn't as influenced by the food we eat, because otherwise society wouldn't function.

Again with this hyper-reductionistic thinking.

Edited Friday at 01:43 PM by Carl-Richard

[Schizophonia]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You're treating fiber reductionistically like it's this one ingredient in a recipe, like one Lego brick in the Lego tower. No, it literally changes how the nutrients in the food are absorbed.

Indeed it decreases absorption 😏

https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2716/rr-3

"His team had found that a meal of oysters quickly raised serum zinc levels but adding beans halved the increase. When beans plus corn were added to the oysters there was no increase at all in serum zinc."

Or maybe it was just anti-nutrients, but it comes to the same insofar as the most fibrous foods are also the more rich in anti-nutrients. Hence traditionally beans are soaked and sonsommed well cokked in small amount, corn is nixtamalized etc.

That's why you want to cook vegetables most of the time, to increase bioavailability of nutrients including micronutrients.

Quote

And it's not just about the fiber, it's about the fruit as a whole. In the kiwi, all the nutrients are in a matrix of a living organism. In the orange juice, you've extracted the liquid from that matrix. Merely the geometry of the fruit alone, as a whole (on its surface) and in its holarchical structure, probably has a huge impact on how it's digested.

No it don't, it is "esoterify" food.

Quote

And we don't have to mention the impact of chewing something before you swallow it. Imagine putting a human in a fruit press, extracting the juices (mostly blood and other bodily fluids) and discarding the "pulp", and saying "the rest is just fiber — tissue and bone — no big deal".

Yes it change not that much, exept a bit if you want stay leaner because of course drinking juice is less satiating and less long-lasting than eating the fruit.

Quote

Again with this hyper-reductionistic thinking.

I'm saying all this is orthorexia, and in fact, choices on this scale don't go beyond the placebo effect; even if you eat bagels, they're broken down and integrated into your metabolism; it's the circadian cycle and the response to environmental stress that determines your energy status, not food, Unless perhaps you're consuming a lot of calories, in which case digestion can rob you of energy.
It takes problematic food choices over a much longer term for the CNS to start generating fatigue or various problems due to diet.

On the other hand, some bad foods can directly damage the intestinal wall and limit nutrient absorption, and these are usually very fibrous foods.

 

Edited Friday at 02:36 PM by Schizophonia

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Indeed it decreases absorption 😏

https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2716/rr-3

"His team had found that a meal of oysters quickly raised serum zinc levels but adding beans halved the increase. When beans plus corn were added to the oysters there was no increase at all in serum zinc."

Or maybe it was just anti-nutrients, but it comes to the same insofar as the most fibrous foods are also the more rich in anti-nutrients. Hence traditionally beans are soaked and sonsommed well cokked in small amount, corn is nixtamalized etc.

That's why you want to cook vegetables most of the time, to increase bioavailability of nutrients including micronutrients.

Are sharp post-prandial glucose spikes better or worse than elongated ones?

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

No it don't, it is "esoterify" food.

Says the guy who uses the word "nixtamalization" 🙈🙈🙈

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I'm saying all this is orthorexia, and in fact, choices on this scale don't go beyond the placebo effect; even if you eat bagels, they're broken down and integrated into your metabolism; it's the circadian cycle and the response to environmental stress that determines your energy status, not food, Unless perhaps you're consuming a lot of calories, in which case digestion can rob you of energy.
It takes problematic food choices over a much longer term for the CNS to start generating fatigue or various problems due to diet.

On the other hand, some bad foods can directly damage the intestinal wall and limit nutrient absorption, and these are usually very fibrous foods.

I honestly think you're not grounded in reality or using concepts in an incredibly autistic way if you can say with a straight face "food doesn't determine energy status".

I used to have problems with digestion, fatigue, headaches, irritable bowel, nausea, energy fluctuations. When I made changes in my diet, the problems disappeared. Maybe that's not a problem for you, but it's perfectly possible to live with these things in denial that food can be the cause.

Edited Friday at 05:14 PM by Carl-Richard

[Schizophonia]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Are sharp post-prandial glucose spikes better or worse than elongated ones?

Idk i would say worse because of the crash.

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Says the guy who uses the word "nixtamalization" 🙈🙈🙈

Ahah non nixtamalized corn seems ok for most of people especially in modern era with variety of foods, but if you're dependent corn you need this procedure for avoiding deficiencies (b6 ans calcium) and destroying some toxins.

But drinking orange juice instead of a "whole fruit" while virtualy make not differences, It's just a headache.

I like kiwis too.

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I honestly think you're not grounded in reality or using concepts in an incredibly autistic way if you can say with a straight face "food doesn't determine energy status".

You say I'm autistic, when you're the one who thinks eating a kiwi instead of a glass of orange juice will ruin your day. I say it's pointless hassle, and I'd only be interested in foods that really cause clear problems, like intestinal issues.
And these foods are generally high-fiber plant foods, consumed in excessive quantities and/or poorly prepared.

Mom was right, you're jealous of my big brain. 

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I used to have problems with digestion, fatigue, headaches, irritable bowel, nausea, energy fluctuations. When I made changes in my diet, the problems disappeared. Maybe that's not a problem for you, but it's perfectly possible to live with these things in denial that food can be the cau

If you don't eat enough nutrients and/or allergenic foods you can have problems yes.

[Schizophonia]

@RendHeaven Talk him about your diet ahah

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Idk i would say worse because of the crash.

Ahah non nixtamalized corn seems ok for most of people especially in modern era with variety of foods, but if you're dependent corn you need this procedure for avoiding deficiencies (b6 ans calcium) and destroying some toxins.

But drinking orange juice instead of a "whole fruit" while virtualy make not differences, It's just a headache.

I once bought a juice when I forgot my fruit at the gym. I literally got a headache, so that's accurate. Maybe pasteurized doesn't compare to fresh (but I guess you would put that under orthorexia as well 🫢).

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

You say I'm autistic, when you're the one who thinks eating a kiwi instead of a glass of orange juice will ruin your day.

Maybe if you smoke cigarettes and don't do regular exercise, orange juice vs kiwi, water vs whiskey, doesn't make much of a difference 😉

 

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I say it's pointless hassle, and I'd only be interested in foods that really cause clear problems, like intestinal issues.

And these foods are generally high-fiber plant foods, consumed in excessive quantities and/or poorly prepared.

If I eat tons of flour-containing foods and no fruits or vegetables, I get digestion issues, headaches and brain fog.

Edited Friday at 07:38 PM by Carl-Richard

[RendHeaven]

11 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

@RendHeaven Talk him about your diet ahah

I basically only eat ground beef and white rice

[PsychedelicEagle]

22 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Of course, if you ask GPT for evidence that the opposite is true, he'll tell you that fiber must help with intestinal transit, etc.; that's ChatGPT, who's coming up with "mechanisms" to brush you off without empiricism (of course, since he's a machine).
There's actually a study that showed that fiber worsens intestinal problems, particularly constipation.

Sure, you don't just believe GPT, you read the studies it will mention. The highest level of scientific evidence are meta-analyses or, even better, umbrella meta-analysis (research studies systematically collecting and evaluating multiple meta-analyses). I dare you to find any type of such studies showing that fiber is more harmful than good.

23 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

More fiber also constipates, unless you drink a ton of water. I've never been as constipated as when I ate dates or coconut; and my "primal" experience didn't induce constipation.

If you suddenly introduce fiber into a gut that's not used to having it yes, you suffer. It's like going to the gym and trying to deadlift 300kg first time. One has to work their way up. Considering they don't have conditions that prevent the microbiota from being modulated. Not everything that makes you feel good in the short term is good for the long term. Fiber is one of such things.

What's funny about what you say is that if you eat most of calories from (non-dried) fruits and vegetables, you almost don't need to drink water. So it's rather the opposite.

23 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

And eating 100g of fiber is dishusting anyway, you have to be very disconnected from the body to swallow so many fibrous foods, unless you take "fiber supplements" lol for some reason.

Again, rather the opposite. One has to be strongly disconnected from the body to not eat fiber. Or, perhaps they had their microbiota harmed so much (by our modern ways of living -- with antibiotics (e.g., contained in meat) and other artificial foods) that they don't tolarate fiber anymore. In this case it's not a problem of being disconnected from their bodies, but that their bodies were disconnected from ancestral ways of living.

I eat 0% fiber supplements -- see below the breakdown for the corresponding date. I just want to show it is possible to eat a significant amount of fiber, 100% from natural sources, and feel good. Plus, I never had such a good intestinal transit as for when I changed my diet.

[Schizophonia]

32 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Sure, you don't just believe GPT, you read the studies it will mention. The highest level of scientific evidence are meta-analyses or, even better, umbrella meta-analysis (research studies systematically collecting and evaluating multiple meta-analyses). I dare you to find any type of such studies showing that fiber is more harmful than good.

I did in a post in this topic.

Studies about fiber just say it increase bowel movements, it's different from curing constipation.

Quote

If you suddenly introduce fiber into a gut that's not used to having it yes, you suffer. It's like going to the gym and trying to deadlift 300kg first time. One has to work their way up. Considering they don't have conditions that prevent the microbiota from being modulated. Not everything that makes you feel good in the short term is good for the long term. Fiber is one of such things.

No it's a fable, like b12 in the ground lol.

You eat fibers, especially certain ones, and it's precisely because your microbiome has adapted to ferment them that you generate gas and pain.
Gas isn't a consequence of a lack of adaptation; it's the cause of the adaptation; literally the opposite of reality.
That's why you can eat highly fermentable foods in a few days, and then symptoms (gaz, pains) eventually develop.

All your intestine can do is increase the speed of transit.

So I am very specific about the fact that I am not anti-fiber, but against certain fibers.

Quote

What's funny about what you say is that if you eat most of calories from (non-dried) fruits and vegetables, you almost don't need to drink water. So it's rather the opposite.

Yes but if you do that you will become a human wreck and maybe lose your teeth

Quote

Again, rather the opposite. One has to be strongly disconnected from the body to not eat fiber. Or, perhaps they had their microbiota harmed so much (by our modern ways of living -- with antibiotics (e.g., contained in meat) and other artificial foods) that they don't tolarate fiber anymore. In this case it's not a problem of being disconnected from their bodies, but that their bodies were disconnected from ancestral ways of living

Humans are essentially carnivors at origin and everybody craves meat; large amount of starch are unavailable on nature and disgusting anyway.

 

Quote

I eat 0% fiber supplements -- see below the breakdown for the corresponding date. I just want to show it is possible to eat a significant amount of fiber, 100% from natural sources, and feel good. Plus, I never had such a good intestinal transit as for when I changed my diet.

I'm willing to believe that you don't have any digestive problems thanks to the water and electrolytes in the fruit.

Fruits fiber seems ok most of the time in general.
I was mainly talking about other food groups.

Edited yesterday at 08:41 AM by Schizophonia

[PsychedelicEagle]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

Humans are essentially carnivors at origin and everybody craves meat; large amount of starch are unavailable on nature and disgusting anyway.

Sorry, but this is utterly absurd. Humans are much closer to frugivores than carnivores. Just look at the mirror. Look at your dental and facial structure - compare that to frugivores vs carnivores. Look at your eyes, tongue, digestive tract, pancreas, gut, enzymes, hands. It's not rocket science.

PS: Frugivore != fructarian. Frugivores can eat meat, occasionally.

PS2: Try to eat raw meat in nature or even cooked meat without salt and spices and see how much you like it, compared to a banana. Or do you think early humans were going to the sea, collecting water, evaporating it and crystallizing it, carrying with them crystallized salt for when they were able to eventually kill an animal? Also, if you don't have a pan, how do you season it?

Edited yesterday at 10:27 AM by PsychedelicEagle

[Schizophonia]

7 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

Sorry, but this is utterly absurd. Humans are much closer to frugivores than carnivores. Just look at the mirror. Look at your dental and facial structure - compare that to frugivores vs carnivores. Look at your eyes, tongue, digestive tract, pancreas, gut, enzymes, hands.

It's all adapted to eat meat too (High gastric acidity, levels of protease, gallblader, medium intestine, no fermentation chambrer...)

7 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

It's not rocket science.

I eat albino testicle powder to cure sexual impotence

7 minutes ago, PsychedelicEagle said:

PS: Frugivore != fructarian. Frugivores can eat meat, occasionally.

PS2: Try to eat raw meat in nature or even cooked meat without salt and spices and see how much you like it, compared to a banana. Or do you think early humans were going to the sea, collecting water, evaporating it and crystallizing it, carrying with them crystallized salt for when they were able to eventually kill an animal? Also, if you don't have a pan, how do you season it?

Game has a stronger flavor due to the way it's fed.
Raw or undercooked meat is still widely consumed, depending on the country.
Bananas don't exist in nature.

And above all you must force yourself to eat lots of bananas.