Marie-Louise Von Franz (Puer Aeternus) - Pickup/Don Juanism x Homosexuality

[CARDOZZO]

I was reading a book by Marie-Louise Von Franz called Puer Aeternus.

She linked Don Juanism/Pickup to Homosexuality. 

What do you think? I'll appreciate your thoughts on that @Emerald

[Joshe]

I see a connection. I just had the thought the other day that to be hyper-fixated on pickup is feminine. Pickup is often more about fulfilling emotional needs rather than physical needs. It’s essentially a response to being very needy of an emotion or reality, masquerading as a response to physical needs, intertwined with neurotic ambition and egoic superiority. 

A mature man would not double down into neediness by masking it with achievement. He would instead remove the neediness altogether, accept reality, and just live his life. If no fuzz comes, it’s fine. A man would accept this reality and outgrow being sad or bitter towards it, and he’d work with the lot he has been given. Women either fall into orbit or they don’t.

Women often melt down when they’re not able to secure a partner. Guys who study pickup are essentially doing the same thing, but they’re using pickup as a coping mechanism and to keep the pain of not being desirable at bay, serving not only as a distraction from the pain, but also simultaneously boosting their self-esteem with the prospect of conquest and superiority.

(If they don’t desire me, I will outwit them and make them desire me. Then, not only will I be desired, I’ll be superior because I orchestrated them like puppets and they don’t even have a clue.) 

Genius survival strategy, aye? Not all PUAs are running on this program but it’s why the PUA community at large exists.

Their physical needs could be achieved without a neurotic, ambitious, hyper-strategic orientation towards the courtship process, but it’s not about physical needs, it’s about emotional needs.

“Pickup is the same energy as sobbing into a pillow because you didn’t get picked for cheer squad — only now it’s a grown-ass man wearing aviators and leather boots, running A/B tests on eye contact.”

So yeah, emotional neediness is characteristic of the feminine. I don’t see how you get to homosexuality though. 

 

Edited July 14 by Joshe

[CARDOZZO]

This was actually a mindfuck. 

She wrote that the archetype of Puer Aeternus is a type of man-child who is NEVER satisfied with reality, partners, work opportunities. He is always switching. He cannot commit to anything in life (work, woman, habits, identity). He never touches the ground. He despises boring hard work. 

The whole thing is that I do pickup and I can see patterns in myself related to Puer Aeternus. 

Obviously, this is a sign to develop masculine maturity.

Edited July 13 by CARDOZZO

[Joshe]

7 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

She wrote that the archetype of Puer Aeternus is a type of man-child who is NEVER satisfied with reality, partners, work opportunities. He is always switching. He cannot commit to anything in life (work, woman, habits, identity). He never touches the ground. He despise boring hard work. 

Interesting. I’ll check it out. Kind of reminds me of some Alfred Adler books I’ve been listening to. 

[CARDOZZO]

Sure.

If you search for pickup artists, you see that they have a feminine vibe. Some of them even have a androgynous style. 

[Zen LaCroix]

For a guy who has to has to learn game from scratch it takes a lot of commitment to the process to get good at game.

There's so much approaching, iterating and tweaks that have to be made over and over for continued progress

[Schizophonia]

Having something to prove is not being overlord.

[Emerald]

I actually just wrote a script on the Puer Aeternus for my channel. I'll be releasing it next week.

I figured that, since Dr. K is talking about it, that it might be a good archetype to cover. I see it as really topical.

But I don't see pick-up as being linked to homosexuality.

It's really evident to me that homosexuality is more physiological than it is purely a psychological phenomenon. I see the universality of gay voice across all cultures is evidence to that fact.

Keep in mind that Marie-Louise Von Franz was writing in a time where homosexuality was still thought to be a psychiatric condition. So, that's going to cause her to look at homosexuality through the lens of pathology instead of simply as a sexual orientation that's a reflection of normal human diversity.

But I do think what Joshe said about pick-up being Feminine is certainly true... as it is typically about emotional things like validation/proof of lovability/desirability, social status among inter-male peer groups, and a salve for loneliness, as opposed to purely meeting physical sexual needs.

[MuadDib]

13 hours ago, CARDOZZO said:

The whole thing is that I do pickup and I can see patterns in myself related to Puer Aeternus. 

Obviously, this is a sign to develop masculine maturity.

It's a nebulous concept brother.

 

[Puer Aeternus]

Oh hey a topic about me! 

Currently working to unfuck this. It's a grand time. Hurling myself into grand uncomfortable situations and absolutely boring work.

[CARDOZZO]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

I actually just wrote a script on the Puer Aeternus for my channel. I'll be releasing it next week.

I figured that, since Dr. K is talking about it, that it might be a good archetype to cover. I see it as really topical.

But I don't see pick-up as being linked to homosexuality.

It's really evident to me that homosexuality is more physiological than it is purely a psychological phenomenon. I see the universality of gay voice across all cultures is evidence to that fact.

Keep in mind that Marie-Louise Von Franz was writing in a time where homosexuality was still thought to be a psychiatric condition. So, that's going to cause her to look at homosexuality through the lens of pathology instead of simply as a sexual orientation that's a reflection of normal human diversity.

But I do think what Joshe said about pick-up being Feminine is certainly true... as it is typically about emotional things like validation/proof of lovability/desirability, social status among inter-male peer groups, and a salve for loneliness, as opposed to purely meeting physical sexual needs.

I agree. I'm thinking about pickup psychology and its trade-offs. 

You attract 100s women - but what costs do you pay for that?

[CARDOZZO]

"In the Don Juan type, we find an icy-cold brutality without any human feeling toward a former lover, and the total sentimental excitement is transferred to another woman. This brutality, or the cold realistic attitude, often appears in situations related to money as well. Because he doesn't care about social adaptation or finding a steady job and working, he has to find money somehow, which he usually finds in scarce deals."

Edited July 14 by CARDOZZO

[CARDOZZO]

2 hours ago, MuadDib said:

It's a nebulous concept brother.

 

Sure it is.

[CARDOZZO]

"In general, a man who identifies with the puer aeternus archetype remains an adolescent for a long time. That is, all those characteristics that are normal in a seventeen- or eighteen-year-old continue into adulthood, along with a great dependence on the mother, in most cases. The two typical disorders of a man who has not separated from his mother are, according to Jung, homosexuality and the Don Juan complex. In the latter case, the image of the mother—the image of the perfect woman who gives man everything and who has no flaws—is sought in all women. He seeks a mother-goddess, therefore, every time he falls in love with a woman, but soon discovers that she is an ordinary human being."

Edited July 14 by CARDOZZO

[aurum]

16 hours ago, CARDOZZO said:

You attract 100s women - but what costs do you pay for that?

Only a small minority of guys who get into pickup ever sleep with 100s of women.

The vast majority couldn't even do that if they tried.

[aurum]

Pickup is not about homosexuality. That's just absurd.

Pickup exists because men want to have sex with women.

Yes, some PUAs have emotional and ego issues. But that's not the reason pickup exists.

Every guy is doing some version of pickup, it's just a question of how healthy it is.

Edited July 15 by aurum

[Emerald]

22 hours ago, CARDOZZO said:

I agree. I'm thinking about pickup psychology and its trade-offs. 

You attract 100s women - but what costs do you pay for that?

As a woman who doesn't respond to pick-up at all, I can tell you that guys who are into pick-up lose attractiveness. They come across like a salesman trying to hit quota, rather than like a regular human being.

What I notice about guys who get into pick-up is that they lose the ability to simply interact with a woman without going into "agenda-mentality" and can't just let the connection form organically. They get too clouded by their knowings and agendas to truly be open.

It's like, they have to do the legwork and escalate... and be the driver of the connection. And it becomes this really linear goal-oriented thing.

And most women aren't into that kind of linear progression. But it will work on a sizable minority of women (maybe 20%-30%).

So, men will get success with that sizable minority of women while functioning in that very mechanistic, utilitarian, goal-oriented way of operating relative to human connection. And they will come to the conclusion that this way of operating works on all or most women, when it doesn't.

And it will repel women who are more open to organic connection and who only respond to the longer-winded and non-linear "fermentation process" of developing mutual feelings.

And the men will believe "Focusing on organic connection doesn't work as effectively" because it gets them fewer numbers.

So, a whole mode of connecting and operating gets cut off because the "pick-up" mode is more effective for the numbers game. And the women who are susceptible to the numbers game have an MO that's less prone to the natural slow-burn or intimate connection.

So, it becomes like a fast-food version of human connection, which is far more transactional and unsatisfying.

But it seems difficult for the guys who are into pick-up to notice what's lost because they're more likely to win the numbers game. 

[Rishabh R]

@Emerald and @CARDOZZO what are your all views on Mark Manson's book Models.

[Emerald]

Just now, Rishabh R said:

@Emerald and @CARDOZZO what are your all views on Mark Manson's book Models.

I haven't read that one.

[CARDOZZO]

Just to be clear:

I do not agree 100% with Marie-Louise. 

If your life orbitates around pickup and you have nothing else to do - I think this is a problem because your world is all about WOMEN all the time. You put woman on the center of your life.