Where is Peter Ralston wrong?

[Breakingthewall]

32 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Breakingthewall It's important to remember not to build a new identification based, for example, on unlimited openness. This is a dead end, like any attempt to weld oneself onto any conceptual framework. The absolute is one thing, and relative levels of self-knowledge are another. Self-knowledge or Self-discovery is based on experience that occurs on relative dual planes, not necessarily "physical" or "material." Duality is the interaction between sets and elements of sets. Therefore, boundaries and limitations are an inherent feature of every relative duality—we could say they are the very nature of duality.

Developing a conceptual framework based on a previous conceptual structure is not the same as developing a conceptual framework based on real openness that is transparent, in the sense that it has no barriers or limits.

To be able to see this, openness must be real. But even if you achieve real openness at certain times, your energetic structure will close, so it's essential to develop a conceptual framework that facilitates openness next time and allows a let's say transparent state all time

The conceptual framework is not "just a thought", it's an energetic structure that operates in background all time, even you are in mental silence . For example if you are a zen master and for you silence is better than concept, the human world is Maya and you can't searching enlightenment, then that's your conceptual framework, disguised of absence of conceptual framework 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:52 AM by Breakingthewall

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall I've been reading your posts for a long time, and the sincerity of your intentions in uncovering the truth is obvious to me. However, like any uncompromising thinker, you walk a thin red line between logical tautology (not to be confused with commonplace tautology!) and circular reasoning. I believe you're aware of this razor edge you're walking.

Wish all the best to You.

[Terell Kirby]

4 hours ago, samijiben said:

He is not "missing" anything in his worldview. It's not the case that his understanding of reality is incomplete because he forgot to mention the significance of psychedelics or Love or whatever.

Ralston doesn’t acknowledge God/Infinite Mind in his teachings- that’s at the heart of it.

I find him to be more aligned with teachings of Zen. Where Ralston is spot on is his teachings on not knowing-clearly pointing out limitations of belief systems and self identity, distinguishing the difference between an idea and the direct conscious experience of a thing. This is highly valuable.

If we asked Ralston about God/Infinite Mind-he would probably see these as ideas. For him Awareness of what IS, is the backdrop of conscious experience (ie state of Being). He’s not wrong about this, but there might be something more fundamental than Awareness itself, that is Infinite Mind, which is the sum total of all states of being (includes state of not knowing and state of knowing).

Edited Saturday at 12:06 PM by Terell Kirby

[kbone]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Thank you for your condescension. I appreciate it, and it's extremely helpful. I hope it makes you feel better. What I wanted to say is that being present and forgetting the fragmentation produced by the conceptual mind isn't true openness. You can believe what I say or not. If you are interested in what I meant to try to understand I could explain. I'm trying to have conversations without measurements of egos.  let's see if it's possible. What you explained about nothing is what happens when you realize that what appears is empty, just an hologram. In my experience It's just a realization, mean that you detach the meaning that the mind gives to everything and then everything appears empty. But really it's full, everything is infinite, but in a different plane. The vision that says that everything just appears magically is limited, everything appears because there are no limits. It's very different. The zen vision is flat, lacks depth, and it's so because they reject "maya". Yo can give a lot of advices about letting go and that, or try to understand what I'm saying, your choice 

OK, before we proceed any further in any discussion, I have a question, but first a tl;dr background for what gives rise to it.

There was a man in human form who was very very dear to me. He was the most reliable, trustworthy figure one can imagine. I was lucky to have him in my life as a core human being. Throughout life, when I was growing up, as I watched television, played in the streets with friends, went to school, played soccer/futbol, basketball, built tree houses with friends, worked on my grandparents farms, met and dated quite a few ladies, and thousands of other eventful things in life, my mind was shaped, molded, conditioned in ways that went beyond this amazing human being's mental structure to fully understand where on earth I was coming from.

To be clear and up front, I was a friggin mess by the time puberty took hold, and the unconscious beliefs structure was on full autopilot. That is, I didn't understand where I was coming from either. I took advantage of that kind, thoughtful, and devotional human being as I went in search of more, which led to a downfall, which led to a collapse, which led to a complete realization & 'rebirth' I can barely put into words but for the ancient literature and deeply non-dual speerchal pointers that give it the language and contextual meaning it can. What got up from that utter devastation, rose from the dust whiter than any gown, took account of all the nonsense the 'previous self' had put so many through, and learned to speak my heart and truth. It was a profound shift. a profound dropping of a MASSIVE weight that had slowly been added over the years/decades/millenia (poor Atlas), and I was no longer interested in creating a stone to roll up a hill, only to have it rolled back down again (poor Sisyphus). Life was precious, and the mind games were just too clearly seen.

The journey back was via a looooong stint in higher education in which I worked/managed programs in the field of cognition and intercultural communication and with thousands of students, women/men, etc deeply delving into what was learnable/unlearnable, how learning takes place (methodology), and deeply aware of how to keep a deep sense of respect and trust at the forefront so that we could continue to explore those tricky boundaries where theory meets the flow of the river of consciousness into which all apparent individuated streams flow. I took responsibility mistakes, became more aware of where the boundaries pop up and so on and so forth, learning how to navigate perspectives and intercultural dynamics of three continents. To sum up, it was pretty fucking thorough series of tests and consolidation patterns for informing the mind of the depths of non-dual realization. Durgint he whole time, I never once even brought up the topic of non-duality, nor really even read a lot about it... didn't really feel the need to.... just let it emerge and slowly works its magic, free of conceptualizations. Almost effortless, except for the trials and tribulations of existence. Life just kept unfolding, regardless of the mind's protests. Clarity on that was it's own reward, and all of the nonsense I used to invite, nurture, carry, and even defend... just fell away. Peace.

During that time, the mind was extraordinarily humbled, to be sure, in awe really. It was somewhere in the midst of all that, that my father and I got into a massive argument (which were quite rare). But, at the time, I was making a stand as a man, an individuation with a pretty honestly structured reality that just made perfect sense to me and with respect to how the world might benefit from it. But the problem was that it was at odds with his (at least at the time). I had never really stood my ground, so it was something quite novel, and was indicative of a destruction of our previous alignment as simply father and son. He struggled deeply with it, but I held my ground.... peacefully, aware that it was just two structures of thought rubbing up against each other, but juuuuust porous enough to potentially learn from each other. I pointed that out, and expressed my deepest love, respect, and admiration for him.... pure gratitude for his being. I could tell no one had ever done that with him, especially after such an argument. Our relationship was forever changed, deeper, more respectful,... even though agitated at times. But, he knew I wasn't just a lost, mindless, and disrespectful son... I was at home with who and what I had 'become'.

Two or three years later, I was participating on an online forum mostly dedicated to non-duality where ideas that are in the orbit around it are fully fleshed out. There was a guy there that was often so clear about his structured take on things, and were often at odds with any of the basics of a Non-duality 101 course. No biggie, it's often a struggle for minds to come to terms, and it's often a deeply misunderstood realization (which makes perfect sense.... minds are fickle AF). During one of the exchanges, someone brought up the term "Asperberger" which I was only vaguely knowledgeable of, so due to my natural curiosity, I decided to take a deeper look. It hit me pretty hard as I learned more and more about it, it hit me hard that it defined my Dad's life trajectory almost to a T. And he knew nothing about it (he was a hard core engineer, deeply involved in mind-splitting maths and specialized in radio frequency structures....like a friggin genius "Beautiful Mind" type of thing. Don't get me started. It shed light on the 3-4-5 major arguments we'd ever had that seemed (to me at the times) to just pop up out of nowhere. Even more, it shed light on what it must have been like for my mother, who was one of the most devoted, supportive, and loving people in the world.... truly. But the problem was, they rarely if ever saw things in the same way, never could just have a heart-to-heart, and often the conversations ended intense micro-burst arguments, followed by quiet, highly enriched periods of silence... detente's of sorts.

That idea of relationship was deeply ingrained in my psyche in various ways, and it was altogether a blessing to have even that, consciously exposed and brought up for conscious examination, to be allowed to just fall away. Sure, it shed light on the constant interface and relation with life, and even to the most intimate day-to-day interpersonal relationship with my best friend. It has enriched and enabled me to have an extraordinarily deep, conscious, and loving relationship with my wife for 25+ (and counting). Out of 4 brothers, I am the only one who is still married, and happily so, but not because I am special. It's because of that special realization and the subsequent and continued falling away of so much the structured nonsense that bubbles up from deep within the psyche, regardless of what theory (ND, psychology, philosophy, or otherwise) says: I know what I don't know, and I know how the mind, with all its conditioned baggage (personal, familial, cultural, shared, human) can get in the way, can sabotage what is a gift, can obscure what's self-evidently clear, and can give rise to contraction from/as the glorious unfolding of Infinity.... just as it is.

I have agreed with you on so many points because I think you are openly, honestly, and courageously exploring things of this nature (it's rare), trying to put forth a positive all-inclusive approach... perhaps 'after' SEEING somenothing that has compelled you to express its profundity. I've been pleasantly curious. But then, here, you isolate such an 'existentially speaking' innocuous line out of so much other detailed agreement, and seemingly take it personally. Then you continue on in the same vein of 'logic' as before, and that seemingly wants to portray objectivity and/or an impersonal tone in your ongoing description of "limitless absolute infinity" (and all the rest). All the while, evidently, you seem dead sure to rights what unknown people, some dead for thousands of years. were 'open to' or not. I simply don't know and, while there might be some interest in the discussion (so I point out where it may/may not diverge from Truth seeking), it doesn't really matter... what matters is if the mind is open to and truly understands what the Realization is telling it as 'real' life continues to unfold in 'realtime'.

So, my question is, do you have Aspergers?

Edited Saturday at 04:11 PM by kbone

[kbone]

3 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Breakingthewall I've been reading your posts for a long time, and the sincerity of your intentions in uncovering the truth is obvious to me. However, like any uncompromising thinker, you walk a thin red line between logical tautology (not to be confused with commonplace tautology!) and circular reasoning. I believe you're aware of this razor edge you're walking.

Wish all the best to You.

🤞🤞🏽🤞🏼

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, kbone said:

question is, do you have Aspergers?

🤣🤣No, I'm absolutely normal in emotional sense, but I can detach myself from the human thing. If you want to see you must be absolutely simple, it's not easy, believe me. 

By the way, I've talked a lot about what I see wrong with Huang Po. Your answer is anything but Huang Po. That is, your response is emotional, not logical. To see, your framework must be like a diamond, not honey. Honey is sticky and opaque, although it's sweet 

Edited Saturday at 04:09 PM by Breakingthewall

[kbone]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

🤣🤣No, I'm absolutely normal in emotional sense, but I can detach myself from the human thing. If you want to see you must be absolutely simple, it's not easy, believe me. 

By the way, I've talked a lot about what I see wrong with Huang Po. Your answer is anything but Huang Po. That is, your response is emotional, not logical. To see, your framework must be like a diamond, not honey. Honey is sticky and opaque, although it's sweet 

Uh huh.

[UnbornTao]

[Breakingthewall]

8 minutes ago, kbone said:

Uh huh.

Less ego and more real conversation. Argue this: 

Huang Po says: Enlightenment cannot be sought or achieved because it is already there. Stop seeking and you are already a Buddha. Wrong. Your energetic configuration closes by default; it is innate. Your human glue makes you perceive in a certain way. If you want to open yourself to what reality is, you must desire it and break down the barriers until only openness remains. It's difficult, so difficult that Huang po didn't achieve it. 

[Breakingthewall]

@kbone  

I'll give you an example. Huang Po says, "Reality is an orange." This implies that he's seeing an orange, and for him, that's what reality is. He doesn't open the orange and eat it. He doesn't see what the orange is. He sees that reality is an orange without penetrating its substance. Although he claims not to have bias, he has a bias toward silence, mental concepts, and peace. So, he sees the orange, but he can't open it. He don't realize that he is the orange.

Edited Saturday at 04:32 PM by Breakingthewall

[kbone]

38 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Less ego and more real conversation. Argue this: 

Huang Po says: Enlightenment cannot be sought or achieved because it is already there. Stop seeking and you are already a Buddha. Wrong. Your energetic configuration closes by default; it is innate. Your human glue makes you perceive in a certain way. If you want to open yourself to what reality is, you must desire it and break down the barriers until only openness remains. It's difficult, so difficult that Huang po didn't achieve it. 

Yes, less ego, Breaking. Less ego.

If that's what Huang Po actually thinks right now, there's be some things to hash out. But he's not here, and you don't seem to understand what he's pointing to. Of course, you're just saying that ... just saying so, does not make it actually realized. I've only agreed with that like, what,,, 4-5 times.

You're talking about cognition, conditioning, and getting radically honest to break through barriers. I agree, and that what my looooong tl;dr was about. But.... AGAIN... you don't read into it, apparently. It was long, you're not a native speaker, and so maybe you just didn't read it. The synopsis was basically agreeing with your idea that it takes massive effort, massive self-honesty, and massive willingness to break out of the orbit of one's delusion. 

It is difficult. I have no doubts, as that what it was for me.

Your conclusion about Huang Po is a logical guess based on whatever degree of clarity you 'assume' you have mustered. Just say you don't know, and make an educated guess. Is that so hard for you? Or do you feel the inner unfulfilled need to be better than Huang baby?

It's starting to come across like there are some unconscious momma-poppa issues that you juuuuust maybe are not yet open to. They do run deep in the familial conditioning, and that's just part of it. Go swim in that pool a while, and see how far your theoretical modeling takes you in a dead honest, real time discussion with them. Be sure to give them a heads up on the model of thinking you want them to understand beforehand; it's only fair.

But yes, living in Japan and Taiwan, you'll see that patriarchal rigidity does come through in the Zen/Ch'an stuff, less so the Taoists. That much was apparent, and I had thought that that was something you might be working towards in your convos with respect to 'existential relationship', cause-effect, phase 1/phase 2, infinity, absolute infinity, infinite absolute openness, and all the rest. But, quite often that's too 'emotionally' challenging and messy for people's mind-made cubic zirconia 'absolute infinite openness'. Best not take chances, eh? 

Is it still passive aggressive if I am calling it out in advance? Your 'logic' seems to only use one side of your brain. 

Edited Saturday at 05:01 PM by kbone

[kbone]

35 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

@kbone  

I'll give you an example. Huang Po says, "Reality is an orange." This implies that he's seeing an orange, and for him, that's what reality is. He doesn't open the orange and eat it. He doesn't see what the orange is. He sees that reality is an orange without penetrating its substance. Although he claims not to have bias, he has a bias toward silence, mental concepts, and peace. So, he sees the orange, but he can't open it. He don't realize that he is the orange.

Again, I understand the logic you are presenting. I guess I'll have to read Huang Po's mind (or at least his daily journals) to get a better understanding of what the fuck is wrong with that guy. 

You remind me of a friend of mine who used to call Ramana 'diaper guy'. He liked to exhibit the same intensity; always fun to watch him get into feuds! 

[Breakingthewall]

40 minutes ago, kbone said:

 

50 minutes ago, kbone said:

Or do you feel the inner unfulfilled need to be better than Huang baby?

It's starting to come across like there are some unconscious momma-poppa issues that you juuuuust maybe are not yet open to. They do run deep in the familial conditioning,

Why do you say such things? I was talking about Huang po. I really would like that Huang PO was absolutely enlightened and he shows the people the way, but it isn't the case. It's hard to see that everyone is wrong. I don't want to gain a competition, I want the absolute openess. I think you are projecting your human thing in me, anyone who's perceptive could see that there is not emotional drama in my opinion about Huang po

40 minutes ago, kbone said:

guess I'll have to read Huang Po's mind

No, I read what he wrote. Then Im talking about the Huang po ideas, not about his personality. 

Another thing: Huang po say: the reality is an infinite mind. Well, that's wrong. When he says "mind" he means relationship. A mind is relation between opposites. The reality is absence of limitations and from this the mind inevitably arises. I say that because I open myself to the unlimited more or less every day. At first was difficult, I used to do 5meo in high doses a lot, maybe 200 times, probably more. I use to do LSD , then weed and then 5meo, in the middle of the night in the dark. Was not enough. Before I used to fly in delta in extreme conditions. "Extreme" means something that now I can't believe. Why doing that shit? Same climbing very exposed, was not enough, nothing was enough, maybe im not the smarter but when I grab something I polish it until it's impossible to polish more, even it take years second by second, I can't avoid it, then, after lot of polishment something started to happen. One day in bed reality become like water, no reference, very scary. Then I went deeper and deeper in the absence of grabbing until the thing got open, without doubt. Then I understand why Huang po says that reality is a mind and what he means, it's absolutely obvious . You could stop judge about my parents and those psychological thing, I'm absolutely out of that, you can act like you believe and judge only what I say about Huang po, not your projections

Edited Saturday at 05:49 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, kbone said:

starting to come across like there are some unconscious momma-poppa issues that you juuuuust maybe are not yet open to. They do run deep in the familial conditioning, and that's just part of it. Go swim in that pool a while, and see how far your theoretical modeling takes you in a dead honest, real time discussion with them. Be sure to give them a heads up on the model of thinking you want them to understand beforehand; it's only fair.

 

My father was a level 10 grandiose narcissist. My mother was an exile from a Muslim country, intelligent and cultured but with low self-esteem. My father played a character in which he worshipped Hitler and constantly proclaimed his eugenics ideas. When I was 10, 11, 12 he made me shower with him and he would pose like a bodybuilder and tell me: I am perfect, you are imperfect and such things. I worshipped him like a god. They both died of cancer before I turned 20. My father was a severe alcoholic and smoked 80 cigarettes a day. Right when he died, I was looking into his eyes. I saw absolute terror, and at one point, in the hospital room, I saw him floating in the darkness, with strings coming out of his limbs like a puppet, and he was making a strange squawking noise while making spasmodic movements. This filled me with absolute joy, and I started laughing nonstop. Since there were people in the room, I pretended to cry and went outside. I laughed for several minutes. I'd never been so happy.

I used to feel sad about my parents, and angry about my father, because he made my mother my sister and me hate ourselves and each other, live in shame. He used to say that he was a CEO of a big company, he was a kinda of scammer. I loved him, he made me feel shit but same time instinctively I felt pity about him, so weak, and my mother also, but later I realized what my father did and I hate him with fire. Luckily he was dead. In the past sometimes I thought about them and I felt like I want to die, don't be in this form. Now it's just something that happened, a circumstance. The movement that the reality took in some moment, nothing special, just relation, cause effect. In fact I feel happy thinking about them. 

After he dies I went to another city alone, I started working and in 5 years I had a business, in other 3,4 I ve money enough to do what I wanted. Then I started traveling and that, but of course I always had a lot of disfuncional shit in me. I did a very serious work in what all my intelligence and intuition was involved, but was no exit. Until I found the exit, was the unlimited. Nothing else would work . Long trip , interesting adventure. That's life, depth, vastness, absolute beauty and glory of the unlimited

Edited Saturday at 08:40 PM by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Great quote

[Inliytened1]

@Leo Gura I am speaking from an enlightenment perspective only not teaching spirituality in general. .but I can only give my own experience.   Your teachings had everything in order to bring out awakening combined with the tools i used.  So that's why i say its enough.  For that only.  But you're right in the sense everyone's enlightenment and everyone's experience is going to be different.   So for someone else perhaps it may be Ralston who opens the mind.  I can tell you that your stuff had the substance and Ralstons may not.  But everyone reacts differently to different teachers.   

Edited Saturday at 08:53 PM by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Your teachings had everything in order to bring out awakening

Sure, but that's a low bar. There is much more to consciousness work, development, and sense-making that just Awakening.

Our goals here are much higher than basic enlightenment.

Edited Saturday at 09:08 PM by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, but that's a low bar. There is much more to consciousness work, development, and sense-making that just Awakening.

No there isn't

It's everything. 

It's everything because of omniscience.   You can forget it later.  But it's still really what everyone yearns for.

 

Edited Saturday at 09:08 PM by Inliytened1

[Nemra]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, but that's a low bar. There is much more to consciousness work, development, and sense-making that just Awakening.

Our goals here are much higher than basic enlightenment.

What about jailbreaking the mind and alien consciousness?

You have mentioned them in your blog posts that those are the goals.

Are they simply a part of awakening, or are they something different? How do you define?

Edited Saturday at 09:19 PM by Nemra

[Terell Kirby]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sure, but that's a low bar. There is much more to consciousness work, development, and sense-making that just Awakening.

Our goals here are much higher than basic enlightenment.

I have a hunch of the difference between the two but I don’t think it an explicit distinction has been made in all my years following your work.

If Awakening is only a facet of consciousness work and sense making, I would assume a deep theoretical grasp of self deception, bias and corruption would be at the other end.

Awakening for me is state focused, consciousness work and sense making go into epistemology, metaphysics and hyper awareness of self deception mechanisms (a recipe for living properly— I’m not claiming to be correct, only a hunch/intuition). You can have one without the other, but in a way-each facet plays off of each other and intertwines nicely

Edited Saturday at 09:58 PM by Terell Kirby