The Illusion of Moral Progress: Why Gradual Change will never be enough

[aurum]

Just now, Nivsch said:

In the peraonal level I am sure it is true.

In the cultural level i tend to think its true but @trenton has an interesting point.

Why would it only be true at a personal level and not a cultural one?

Are cultures not made up of people?

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

Why would it only be true at a personal level and not a cultural one?

Are cultures not made up of people?

Because structural development happens to the individual, whereas the new generation can only inherit the content the previous generation have learned but not the structure it had, so theoretically, structurally, each generation can still start its development from zero.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, trenton said:

This seems to be going nowhere though. If I am right about your corruption, then of course you are going to deny it and gaslight me. That's how corruption works pretty much every time even if I am right.

You are making this into some kind of personal thing about me when it is clear that all of political history contradicts your view.

Rather than psycho-analzying me, spend more time reading history.

Edited June 30 by Leo Gura

[aurum]

32 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Because structural development happens to the individual, whereas the new generation can only inherit the content the previous generation have learned but not the structure it had, so theoretically, structurally, each generation can still start its development from zero.

No generation is starting purely from zero.

Each generation inherits massive developmental advantages from previous generations.

[Nivsch]

17 minutes ago, aurum said:

No generation is starting purely from zero.

Each generation inherits massive developmental advantages from previous generations.

No content has any value if you hadn't built the neural pathways allowing you to run it through and understand it.

Edited June 30 by Nivsch

[aurum]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

No content has any value if you hadn't built the neural pathways to run in through and understand it.

But the point is that it becomes much easier to develop those neural pathways because of previous generations.

Neural pathways and development co-evolve.

You will rapidly ascend to the center of your culture in neural / ego development. And this builds on top of each other, which is how cultures are able to evolve over time rather than starting from zero.

[Nivsch]

@aurum But neurological adaptation imposed by the environment is meaningless if not self-learned.

Edited June 30 by Nivsch

[aurum]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@aurum But neurological adaptation imposed by the environment is meaningless if not self-learned.

Environmental imposition is a necessary condition for self-learning to occur.

[OMG]

6 hours ago, trenton said:

I know you released a video on gaslighting in the past, and in that video you claimed it can get really complicated and hairy with both sides claiming gaslighting. However, from my point of view, I recognize multiple layers of gaslighting. From the looks of how this is going, I doubt it will lead to anything significant. I will just point out what these gaslighting methods are and then do no further debate as this seems to be going nowhere and I do not want to waste any more time.

1. Your suggesting that my difficult life and situation is clouding my view of reality.

I have met therapists who have tried to gaslight me in the exact same way. Sometimes the opposite is true. Sometimes due to being a victim of abuse, I become more uniquely sensitive to the red flags and the manipulative patterns surrounding such abuse. In my case I experienced multiple cases with sexual predators trying to wear a mask of false playfulness and humor designed to minimize their actions. I recognized this continued pattern while I was being sexually harassed in a place that is supposed to be for mental health recovery. My therapist concluded that the perpetrators were just shit-talking and that I should talk things over them. I did as I was told and they proceeded to lie about the entire thing. This is an example of trauma and mental health being used to gaslight someone who is a victim of abuse even though a victim of trauma may actually be uniquely aware of the manipulation tactics surrounding abuse. The outcome is that the victim is silence and the perpetrators are protected. Even therapists suck on this front because the educational system does not teach them enough about abusive dynamics, leading them to naive proposals as they focus on individual pathologies. In this example, it demonstrates that sometimes I have a more clear of view of reality because of my trauma which makes me more sensitive to patterns of manipulation and abuse.

2. You appear to have positioned yourself to avoid all responsibility.

The suggestion appears to be that any expectation makes me wrong. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a paying customer to approach a product with no expectation whatsoever. This would have to include any expectation that anything presented is truthful, valid, or useful. I don't see how it is possible to run a business with customers who are supposed to have no expectations whatsoever for any product. I may as well be approaching a sex toy in a store and then have no expectation if it gives me pleasure or if the sex toy is going to transform into Godzilla and bite my dick off before going to my computer to file some taxes, yet have no complaints to the people who sold such a product. The Self-help and personal development industry is largely profitable because of people's expectation of self-help and oftentimes this is not delivered. It is constantly framed within 100% responsibility principles which become a layer of victim blaming when self-help does not work. This is basically how self-help avoids taking responsibility for wisdom that is actually flawed or incomplete as it markets success as some kind of mindset and that systemic barriers are routinely overcome just through some sort of personal effort. To often are these issues framed as personal failures rather than flawed wisdom, making self-help effectively unfalsifiable.

This seems to be going nowhere though. If I am right about your corruption, then of course you are going to deny it and gaslight me. That's how corruption works pretty much every time even if I am right.

You are so right about this. I for one had a career based on my natural interests and left that after watching Leo's Life Purpose promo that was very persuasive, got in my head and I started doubting my career and making so many promises to give me better results than I already had ended up being an absolute disaster for me. Leo now sitting in his high horse after making millions using the same grifting techniques that he criticizes other self help teachers now days. These self help teachers are way more corrupt and often their methods and teachings are broken from the get go and won't give you the results they promise, they then gaslight and put all the blame on you when you fail to get results not their method is usually some MLM scheme or flawed in other ways. At least the universities hard provide stats how post graduation most people end up making more than other but these grifter self help teachers cannot give you the same stats but will shit non stop on mainstream institution as marketing ploy to sell their own flawed broken products. 

[Leo Gura]

@OMG Any attempt at success has a pretty high failure rate in life.

What is it you expect? Everyone who takes the LP course to succeed? Of course that will not happen.

Do you know how many projects/careers I've attempted in life and failed at? A LOT. That's how this stuff works.

And what does any of this have to do with moral progress? If you have personal gripes with me, that's fine, but don't conflate it with questions about reality and history.

Also note that I have never claimed to be free of corruption. I am corrupt in some ways. When I speak of corruption it is not to virtue signal to you but because this is a topic I am deeply interested in researching. I share my research with you.

Edited July 1 by Leo Gura

[Terell Kirby]

@Leo Gura it was a bold move to pivot your work to focusing more on the epistemic perversion of humankind and revealing its darkest secrets. I imagine you anticipated some kind of backlash from your followers, I personally think it was well worth it-

I don’t think any of us saw it coming, this raw and direct at least (as of late). No more softballs from Leo- every time I see a forum or blog post from you I brace for impact—it’s a gut punch oof 😓 

Edited July 1 by Terell Kirby

[Emerald]

Moral development and the question of "evil" isn't even the most effective perspective through which to see this issue... as neither morality nor evil are their own root causes. They are surface-level symptoms and labels that keep us grappling with those symptoms... and missing the root cause entirely.

Seeing the problem of evil and prescribing morality and goodness as the cure... is like being a doctor that recognizes the patient has a fever and proposes Tylenol as a cure, when the patient actually has Malaria.

And this notion of human morality remaining constant and the persistence of evil, is not recognizing what "moral development" really means at the roots... and what it really means to "cure" the root cause of evil.

What we fail to see is that underneath all apparent evils is always a fundamental benevolent and loving intention towards all things recognized as Self. (This is why morality and evil is a very shallow perspective that no solutions can be found in.)

But in our ignorance to the fundamental state of benevolent oneness that undergirds all sentient impulses... we split the world into the illusion of self and other. And we will go to war with anything labeled "other."

We can even split ourselves... and label parts of ourselves as "other" and go to war with them.

And it's because of this illusion of 'self and other' that TONS of "evil" actions that are taken all the time... rape, genocide, torture, murder, child abuse, pedophilia, etc. And these are VERY common in the human species.

And it's more common than the average person knows... lest they are on the receiving end of said "evils.'

Lucky people end up in little bubbles of privilege that insulate them from the harshness of the world. Hence, the most sheltered among us are the most unawares about both the surface and the roots of humanity.

But like I said, looking through the lens of moral development and evil is just not a very effective lens through which to view this issue because morality and evil are just surface-level symptoms of a deeper problem.

And that is the problem of disconnection and fragmentation... within ourselves and relative to others.

And anyone (and anything), we genuinely recognize as part of ourselves... we will not want bad things to happen to these aspects of ourselves. And if harm comes their way, we will hurt. And we will not be capable of harming others without harming ourselves.

But if we are disconnected (especially to an extreme degree) and we believed that we are separate form other people and the Earth itself... we will not care if harm comes to human, creature, or planet.

So, what looks like a lack of moral development and evil on the surface is just a symptom of the ignorance that causes disconnection.

And the entire reason why Spiral Dynamics can even be framed in terms of "moral development" is because, as we move up the spiral, we expand the scope of our sense of self to see more and more through the illusion of separation.

Let's look at more collective phases in Spiral Dynamics... because the sense of self and other increases in more individuation-oriented phases.

A Stage Purple tribe from thousands of years ago sees their tribe as one with themselves... and everyone else is an other. 

A person in a Stage Blue society will see everyone in their nation as one with themselves... and everyone else is an other

And ostensibly once we have Stage Green community (which hasn't yet come to pass) we will expand our self-identification to a species-wide or even inter-species identification.

And beyond that, at Turquoise we recognize a more cosmic oneness.

So, it's this expansion of our sense of self-hood and the undoing of the illusions of separation and disconnection that causes what we refer to as "moral development"

But the moral development stays the same. We always are 100% benevolent towards Self... and we are indifferent towards "other". That's always the case at every phase. 

That doesn't' change. As long as we are in a state of ignorance about our inter-connection and oneness with others, we will continue to be an organism at war with itself.

What changes is that we expand our identity, our consciousness, and our worldview to include those that would have been considered "other" in eras past.

And we can interpret this on the surface as "moral development" or "overcoming evil".

But the reality is that nothing really changed... except the fact that we've seen through the veils of our own ignorance to recognize the underlying oneness underneath the apparent sense of separation.

So, societies only "morally develop" because society's expand from tribal cosmologies, to national cosmologies, to global cosmologies.

It's just an aperture change of our scope of awareness which re-sensitizes us to the pain and harm we might have otherwise caused without that sensitivity.

it's awakening heart wisdom towards that which spans beyond the scope of yourself as an individual or your family or community... or even your own species.

Edit: Here's a video that I made on the topic of evil, as explored through the lens of the Genesis story in the Bible...

 

Edited July 1 by Emerald

[Ajay0]

On 6/30/2025 at 0:34 AM, trenton said:

The reality of Martin Luther King's success was actually more nuanced than just taking a strong moral position. King was also very well educated and even came from a privileged background himself. he understood the power dynamics at play more clearly than current leftists, and he devised a deliberately strategy to overcome these power dynamics. Peaceful protests alone were never going to be enough to bring about change. These protests needed to carried out when the elite powers were divided and weakened due to the need to appear superior to the Soviet Union for propaganda purposes. these protests cannot be carried out at just anytime with significant effect. This is what gave King a little bit more leverage over the elites than present leftists have or realize they need in order to be successful. Likewise, the reason why showing peace and love as police officers beat you or as the British empire kills the people of India, is not because the universe is just and kindness and love will ultimately prevail.

This is actually a deliberate strategy to make the aggressor seem brutal by comparison, thereby controlling the narrative and garnering more support. It is a strategic application of morality rather than a universal rule that works under all circumstances as those in power want us to believe. Unfortunately, current leftists often believe in moral persuasion, but this is an oversimplification of why the Civil Rights movement was so effective. Maybe Martin Luther King and other Civil Rights leaders were actually stage yellow rather than stage green like current leftists. Meanwhile, I find it misleading to frame the 1960's as the emergence of green when really all levels of the Spiral were present throughout human history, but humanity went back and forth as these stages competed with each other. Unfortunately, today's leftists are often bought into the oversimplified and sanitized version of Martin Luther King that makes him look less intelligent than he actually was, thereby leading to less effective forms of resistance on their part.

 

Peaceful and non-violent movements are not just mere political tools for arousing national consciousness and bringing change and reforms.

Non-violence and peace are necessary conditions to cultivate civilian qualities like love, compassion, morality and humanity.

Former American president Jimmy Carter and Nobel prize winner for peace had stated thus, "The U.S., he noted, has only enjoyed 16 years of peace in its 242-year history, making the country "the most warlike nation in the history of the world."  He lamented the US's lack of prioritization of education, healthcare , housing , infrastructure at the expense of military funding which was prioritized.

And as Martin Luther King Jr. famously stated, "A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death".

Yesterday I came upon an article of two firefighters trying to put down a bush fire shot dead by a gunman for no apparent reason, and this seems to be the latest senseless mass shooting in the US after a record breaking year in 2023 in terms of mass shootings. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/05/mass-shootings-record-year

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/2-dead-in-idaho-after-firefighters-ambushed-by-gunfire-while-responding-to-blaze/ar-AA1HEtXs?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Firefighters risk their lives to save the lives of other people, mainly strangers, and it is unfortunate to read that some mentally ill person or sadist have shot them.

This is obviously an another reason and case study more for US to regulate its weapons accessibility for its citizens, and invest heavily in a good mental healthcare ecosystem that is unfortunately lacking at the moment.

And of course it goes without saying that it is important as well to create a culture of non-violence and peace, which are necessary conditions for love, harmony, mental health and personal well-being to flourish.

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, aurum said:

Environmental imposition is a necessary condition for self-learning to occur.

The environment provides you the protection that allows you to sit and learn, but the structural process is still on you. I feel now this is the only kind of developmental intergenerational inheritance we can be sure about.

Edited July 1 by Nivsch

[trenton]

I have done further research, and I have found further evidence of the illusion of moral progress. This comes from the point of view from geopolitics, the motives behind these decisions, and the continued selective application of morality and legality. A good saying for understanding these situations is "countries don't have allies, they have interests." This pattern goes back throughout all of human history and continues to this day while nations disguise their exploitation of friendly alliances and partnerships. In reality we are all enemies.

Although on the surface America pretends to be friendly with the European nations, the world leaders know this isn't actually true. Each of these "allies" are actually plotting against each other for world domination. This kind of framework allows for another interesting lens to analyze the world wars with. During those days, Germany was attempting to replace Britain as the global hegemon. In order to challenge British dominance, it required massive military expansion from their point of view. Following WWI, the Germans failed and the allies placed massive debt on Germany for reparations. Given the pattern of extortion disguised as morality, I would infer that the goal of these reparations had nothing to do with rebuilding after the war, as the primary function appears to have been to cripple Germany, ensuring that they would not be able to make a serious attempt at world domination. This ultimately proved to be insufficient. By the way, the assassination at the beginning of WWI was the cover to start the war. It was probably another example of political theater to justify what was already planned while garnering public support.

WWII is more interesting. It shows the role of racism in establishing global dominance. Germany invented racist myths about the Aryans and the Jews which was intended to mobilize the Germans toward conquest. Sometimes racism is a deliberate invention to establish patterns of control and power. Furthermore, the allies hoped that the Nazis would interfere with the Soviet's attempt at world domination. This world domination game is actually going on constantly.

The thing that caught my attention, was how America exploited the world wars to establish global dominance. America delayed intervention in the wars because it wanted to maximize the value from the eventual involvement. During this time America was also plotting to replace Britain as the global hegemon. America exploited the fact that Europe was in ruins following the wars and established the World Bank. The World Bank would establish the dollar as the global currency as Britain hoped for a special relationship with America by giving up its position only to be disappointed that America actually did not care about developing such special friendships.

To this day America has no allies in the world. Europe is using the Euro as an attempt to create alternatives to the dollar. Meanwhile, America's "allies" in the middle east are also making deals with Russia and China to get out of using the dollar. They sense that American dominance is weakening and they are prepared to switch sides the moment that happens. Meanwhile, the friendly talk you see about America and Europe is basically the theater designed to hide the exploitation that is happening through the deals America is effectively forcing her allies into. International relationships have been this way throughout all of human history. America has just gotten more convincing at disguising the exploitation as benevolence compared to past world hegemons. A good example might be helping Japan rebuild after WWII only to turn them into a false ally as they became easily exploitable.

The reason this kind of situation suggests that moral progress is an illusion is because fundamentally, the world leaders understand that morality and reason do not matter so long as the one with power will be the one to dictate what is moral or truthful. In this sense, humanity has not actually evolved beyond "might makes right," but we instead found ways to hide this under the facade of moral crusades and we are doing it more convincingly. This also explains why morality is applied inconsistently and why laws are often designed to weaken other nations. Any moral progress that comes about from these kinds of power dynamics is largely circumstantial, accidental, or a calculated strategic decision rather than an evolution in human consciousness. Much of the moral outrage and acts of kindness generally have nothing to do with what is moral and is often more political theater. The fundamental power dynamics which dictate morality are still in place.

This is also why moral persuasion is often useless. If someone has power over you, then your logic and your morals do not matter at all. This seems to be how the world leaders operate and think as they continue to compete for world domination.

[Nivsch]

@trenton Even if we assume for a moment that the leaders aren't operating with morals at all but only out of interests, but how do the things you said contradict moral development of the wide public?

Edited July 1 by Nivsch

[trenton]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@trenton Even if we assume for a moment that the leaders aren't operating with morals at all but only out of interests, but how do the things you said contradict moral development of the wide public?

It is because the appearance of moral development is itself part of the game that is being played. Moral development isn't actually about being good, but appearing to be good and thus building an image which serves the broader empire. Whether or not it serves the wide public or what is actually good is not the point, but part of a deeper game that is being played. This game often involves allowing for corruption in more subtle and hidden ways in order to thus appear good on the surface.

Slavery is an interesting example of this. You would think that the United States developed morally following the Civil War and the 13th Amendment. In reality, slavery continued to be documented long after the Civil War. The propaganda machine would have you believe that the last chattel slave was Alfred Irving who was freed in September of 1942 in response to Japanese propaganda against the United States which served to undermine our international image. Freeing Irving was thus in response to the attack on Pearl Harbor and America's broader geopolitical goals, not as an evolution in moral conscience.

The proof that this wasn't about moral conscience can be found in the fact that chattel slavery actually continued in America after WWII. Examples of slavery can be found in the 1970s with the Waterford Plantation holding families in debt bondage while the families on the plantation lacked the means to leave. There is the story of Mae Louise Walls who remained enslaved with her family until 1963 in Mississippi and Louisiana. These slaves were still being taught that all black people were being treated like this as they were forbidden to leave. Even the law enforcement continued to side with the slave owners during this time because the slave owners still had connections to governmental power. Basically, the entire "end to slavery" narrative was part of America's propaganda lie because slavery did continue, but became more hidden. This would match the pattern of corruption becoming more sophisticated and subtle rather than being eliminated.

Modern examples of slavery in America might include the labor exploitation of immigrants from Central America. Because black people have too many political protections now, the new target is immigrants who remain the scapegoat for everything wrong with America. Modern slavery is also now being called "labor trafficking" or "human trafficking" which is harder to track than chattel slavery. There are still corporations and plantations exploiting these immigrants, which means that we may still have slavery, but it continues to be hidden by corporate internal documents about the supply chain practices as they pretend slavery doesn't exist. I know there are examples of slavery continuing in the electronics industry over seas, but once again it is made more subtle and sophisticated than the usual chattel slavery.

I hope these examples demonstrate how the appearance of moral development is itself part of the game of appearing good while making corruption more hidden and subtle. As for the general public, we continue to be manipulated by more sophisticated forms of propaganda and lies spread through the media. We thus remain unwitting tools of the American empire as we are made to believe that we are morally superior to the previous generations. This is by design and serves to make us believe in gradual change that is meant to be sustainable to America, even though radicals like King were explicitly opposed to gradualism. The white washing of beloved figures makes us think we have moved forward when in some ways we have actually moved backwards such as America developing more sophisticated control mechanisms for moral opposition.

[trenton]

I would like to add that the general public did not develop its moral positions independently. The reason that the general public opposes things like slavery is because many of our moral positions were shaped by an educational system which serves elite interests. Our moral positions are also shaped by media propaganda and religion which are also aligned with power. Although the general public has moral positions which have changed, this moral development is still being guided and controlled by the elites within acceptable boundaries. This includes being taught to oppose historical injustices while present injustices are largely rationalized by the media and a significant portion of the general public still believes all of these lies due to not developing an independent moral compass of what the elites want us to have.

This might be a better counter argument to why the moral progress of the general public is not as great as we are led to believe. Your argument has some truth to it that the moral opinion of the general public can change even if moral progress from the elite point of view is just the strategic repositioning of power. However, public opinion of what is moral is still heavily regulated by the elites because most people in the general public do not arrive at their moral positions through independent thought outside of what they were taught.

[Rafael Thundercat]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Also note that I have never claimed to be free of corruption. I am corrupt in some ways. When I speak of corruption it is not to virtue signal to you but because this is a topic I am deeply interested in researching. I share my research with you.

I was about to comment another day that in between some quotes and reminderS of metaphysical stuff you added a lot about corruption and for me this is amazing since I am myself looking to the dark corners of human game and myself too. This could be seen as a sort of Shadow work, and as we see in our world, there is a lot of it to be done if we have any hope of change. What is going on in America ,Israel, Congo, well  basicaly everywhere, is result of ages of generations of humans who refuse to look to the dirt in their lineages or in their own lifes. So corruption is a hot topic for inner transformation.

[Rafael Thundercat]

What about this Moral Development here

BREAKING:

In a damning new report, Francesca Albanese accuses 60 companies of enabling apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and the mass murder of Palestinians — all for profit:

“Israel’s genocide in Gaza continues because it is lucrative for many.”

Is all about the money,money,money..

Francesca Albanese is this one:

 

Edited July 1 by Rafael Thundercat